Wakeup fundamentals

akuma

#1

Hi
I’m trying to bring my play to the next level, but I need your help with understanding some basic concepts about wakeup.
Starting situation: I (Akuma) just scored a hard knockdown against Sagat. Now, assuming I want to use a meaty cr.lp (3/2/7), in the ideal case I stick out the last active frame of the cr.lp the moment sagat stands up. This means that in any case I have to wait 1+7 frames until I can do anything, right? So if Sagat decides do an uppercut the very moment he wakes up (5 frames invincible startup), I’m bound to eat it no matter what. Is that correct? If so, this also means I have no safe meaty options against Sagat on wakeup? And if that is true, this means I have no means of putting pressure on him on wakeup until I manage to condition my opponent not to SRK on wakeup?
Not sure if that’s how it works, or if I’m dead wrong on this one. Help much appreciated.

traxxed


#2

You can beat a lot of his wake-up options, you just need to find the right timing. For example, crossup tatsu works great on his wakeup and beats his dp. The safest thing for sagat is to do nothing and block, everything else can be beaten or made to wiff.


#3

That’s not the issue here I think. His problem is mainly why would you meaty XX someone you just knocked down instead of jump on him with a meaty heavy normal that by design will have only 4 frames of recovery and give safe offense against Sagat reversals ?
Ground meaty are used when you can’t get the first option for some reasons, when you already know the opponent can’t do shit about it (AE 2012 Deejay vs meaty cr.LK), or when you gave him reasons to not reversal with some successful baits before. Very few situation offer safe ground meaties in this game, no matter the char you play. It’s almost always unsafe against reversals. But a punished blocked reversal drain your life in pain while a wake up reversal is only a hundred HP lost for you.

Though back on Sagat matchup, he’s relatively easy to safe jump meaty or with delayed dive kicks. And there’s few reasons to push it further with unsafe pressure on him.


#4

Thanks Shabrout, that’s what I was looking for. I didn’t know j.heavy was 4 frames recovery by design. What about j.medium? Or even better, can you point me to where I can find this data?
On a related note, what about chars with 3 frame reversals? Is there no safe wakeup pressure on them at all?
Thanks again


#5

It’s not just jump heavies, jump + any normals = 4 recovery frames on landing.
You need to read more about SFIV base mechanics, safe jumps, jump recovery and such.

And the only way to safe jump 3 framers, is if you have an attack that will reach their hurtbox on wake up, but let your hurtbox out of reach of their reversal while you land. It’s usually far reaching normals used with far jump ins that give no kind of any ambiguity on how they can block it safely. Thus they have no reason to try a wake up move on you. They are also pretty hard to setup and time and not worth the hassle.

By design 3 framers, usually shoryuken, have a clean weakness on top of them (back shoulder area) past the invincibility frames, and are quite easy to stuff, or make whiff with non meaty cross ups/dive kicks. You’ll find 4 framers without this weakness and harder to challenge than 3 framers.


#6

Thanks Shabrout, that helps a lot. I’ll hit the lab with this info.