Now I know that makoto is really strong post-hayate and on wakeup, but people I play spam a lot of attacks and reversals.
Usually when I’m going for a wakeup mix-up my opponent either parries standing or goes for an srk-type move.
It’s resulted me in switching from SAII to SAI and doing nothing but block low the entire match, then use c.lk x lp hayate ->SAI when I have an oppurtunity.
I find myself using s.mp WAY too much on wakeup and that is part of the problem. Dashing back for karakara telegraphs really bad and my opponents usually go for srk.
I’ve had a lot of success with c.lk tick karakusa but I’m afraid I overuse it.
Should I start using c.fp? I don’t want to get raped by reversal super or etc. punishers as I know it’s not safe. Maybe use f.rh? I’ve seen people use it even in some serious matches, but everyone always tells me to stay away from it. I’ve thought about going for dash back kara FP chop. I know it’s safe on block, knockdown on hit and if they parry I can go for super. Not sure if it’s a good idea, might only work once or get reaction dp’d but I’ll probably try it out next time.
Basically I’m just looking for more wake-up mixups or if there’s something I haven’t considered, or any general mix-up options and advice.
hey man good to hear your trying new stuff! i forget can you kara-karakusa? i noticed that twards medium punch sets them up in perfect range for it mwa haha! i’ve never tried it in a match maybe you should check it out ps do you have aim? should hit me up on aim -WinterofHeresy, we can talk some makoto strats.
i’m sure this has been discussed 432 times on this forum but i’m bored :x
my favorites! not very complicated or interesting but they get the job done?
-s.mp or c.lk -> karakusa
-s.mp or c.lk -> anti-jump-option (c.hk, s.hp, c.lk or s.lk->lp.hayate, ex chop, ex tsurugi, j.hk etc etc)
-(optional tick->)ex chop
-rarely, i will risk using a c.lk->lp.hayate to remind them that they still need to block low… but now that i think about it, whoring out c.hp will do the same thing to some extent-- the only things that i know of that can punish c.hp are ken’s sa3 & equivalents
and if you have sa1… there is another list of hit-confirms/setups to mess with…
there are more character-specific details, but… all of a sudden i’m feeling lazy
Blocking really isn’t the issue. I block too much as it is since I can’t think of a decent way to mix-up when I have the oppurtunity. Really I’m looking for a way to mixup when I’m on offense, not nearly how to deal with the random srk problem, since blocking obviously solves that.
I also use s.mp too much, so if you can think of anything else that helps.
I think c.hp is better then c.lkx lp hayate since you have to usually blow meter to punish at max range (i.e. oro ex srk/reversal super) whereas lp hayate is easily punishable with no meter whatsoever, right? (not sure)
I think I’ll try to use dash back c.fp a little. Can I meaty it or use it to meaty srks?
As for the karakusa thing, yeah I can nearly 100%. I know pretty much every tick there is too, it’s just that most of them involve standing moves if not all of them.
Question, if I go for meaty s.rh and I get parried, can they throw me? (assuming normal throw range/no kara).
Just for you, I’ll tell u every possible thing I do on opponent wake up.
karakusa. I actually dance up and down (crouch to stand to crouch) a bunch times if they are not rolling… it seems to help “trick” them a bit to buy you enough time to throw out a karakusa. I generally kara-karakusa only when theyre rolling, or if i’ve landed some sort of setup or got some spacing by the corner, which i’m not gonna get into.
s.mp … Obvious, since this is obviously your problem. Theres so many options from a s.mp, but I guess I won’t get into them at all if you’re having trouble getting past the s.mp
Take a step back and s.fp x hayate (ex if you want). This will stuff throw attempts, and if you happen to hit them jumping, you can cancel a hayate to have yourself a nice little reset.
c.lk x hayate … risky, but nice if you hit it, or if your opponent has no bar. reminds them to block low. c.lk x hayate (cancel) if i feel like i can get a good payoff from mixing up after that.
Tick x karakusa or throw. you already said you know all these.
empty jump and throw
jump straight up and late tsurugi.
jump straight up and immediate ex tsurugi
c.lk x oroshi (preferably ex)
jump straight up, whiff a rh, and karakusa when u land.
step back, c.fp
sounds to me that you just need to adapt to your opponents a bit. for example, you say that when you back up to karakarakusa it is horribly telegraphed. What do they do? Jump? If thats the case, back up like ur going to karakarakusa, and c.rh or something. Try to improvise your mixups a bit, instead of having set ones to choose from. mixing up on wakeup does not mean you need to hit them right away. The idea to keep you on the offense, and the longer makoto stays on offense, the better chance she has to land something nice.
if you meaty the s.rh, im pretty sure they can throw you if they tech. If you time the c.fp perfectly you may be able to sorta meaty it, and maybe exchange blows if they srk at best, but I don’t think you will beat most moves people use when waking up.
I do say stay away from f.rh, unless you have some space to cover and you feel like a f.rh cancelled into a karakusa may work.
All in all, I don’t understand how you are losing to someone who likes to wake up super/srk, or parry high. land a few c.lk x hayate, or just block. If they super or srk, theyre totally fucked. If they parry high, theyre not doing any damage to you, cuz you’re not throwing a high move out.
Just cuz you are makoto doesn’t mean you need to stand on top of your opponent when they wake up, if you seem to be getting owned at the wake up game, just play a tad less aggressively, cuz you got your opponent on the ground somehow in the first place right? ^^
Nice list of options ESK, I occasionally do all of those except 3, 7 and 11. Add to that list the following and you’ll have my full mixup game on paper
-meaty C.LK tick, karakusa: I like it better than meaty S.MP because it stuffs certain moves better. It is however an unsafe normal and punishable by freak accidents and ppl REALLY looking for it. The latter has yet to happen.
-from up close right before they get up whiff a S.LK which puts you outside throw range, then Karakusa. I like this better than going straight into karakusa. Sometimes (depending on timing and spacing) if Ken does FP SRK you only get hit by the second hit and you won’t get knocked down, letting you punish.
Things I’ve wanted to try but haven’t:
-C.MP as parry bait (parryable both ways) and buffer late SA2 so it only cancels on parry.
-dash back, C.MP x Hayate if I see a whiffed throw or something else.
is late buffering a c.mp to saII like that possible? if it is, i don’t think it would be too much of a viable option in match, but if it does work it would be interesting, and could possibly work once in a blue moon. Id imagine you’d have to do it pretty perfectly, since if they go for a high attack after a parry theyd probably be able to hit you on your way up. or if they tried to punish you with a small chain x whatever, or shorts x whatever, theyd have ample time to block, in which case you’d be screwed.
i tend not to use back dash too much when i got my opponent in a wake up game. I used to use it quite a bit, until I realized i was eating things like ken’s fierce shoryu x saIII or c.mk SAIII unnecessarily. Makoto’s back dash feels like its just not good enough to do something like that… like… ken’s is nice and quick, and does put you out of throw range, but gives you enough time to block if they whiffed a throw. Yun’s will get you totally outta there. Seems like makoto’s is in between. She does cover a bit more distance than ken, but that leaves a bigger time frame in which u cannot block. IDK… maybe it will work ^^
yes it’s possible. I don’t know how practical it is though. If they try to parry > throw and you’re in startup fast enough then you’ll definitely get them. but let’s say they’re in the later part of a short by the time you get super freeze, then yes, you’re boned. As for getting hit out of the air it all depends how fast they punish really. As I said I haven’t really tried this yet, but I’m visualizing it’ll work lol. Law of attraction and all that new age BS.