Wakeup Scarlet Terror vs Meaty Hooligan Throw/Oil Dive

vega

#1

So the Hooligan combination and oil dive both work like, they miss crouchers but throw people out of standing and air. And on the first frame after knockdown, a character is standing so the only thing they can do is perfectly time a “reversal crouch normal” to force themselves into crouching. Or just do something invincible.

So is the Scarlet Terror just entirely throw-invincible or is it just airborne? Will Vega get throw out of reversal wakeup Scarlet Terror by meaty Hooligan Throw/Oil Dive?


#2

Scarlet terror is not entirely throw invincible, since ive been air thrown out of active scarlets by guy’s air throw special move thingy.
If id had to guess its throw invincible all the grounded frames and maybe some extra frames in the air, so no way a grounded throw will grab it and air throws perhaps , but only very late in Scarlets active time, wich makes it more of a lucky air throw then a solid counter.

To answer your question, if you do wake up scarlet it will beat all those meaty throw attempts.


#3

Really? I was under the impression that Scarlet Terror just didn’t have grounded frames, which is why beating an ST with a meaty will always get Vega air-reset. Does it have literal throw-invincible frames too? Only way I can see it beating those setups/

Keep in mind that Hooligan Throw + Oil Dive grab both grounded characters and airborne characters, but not crouching characters. (And that’s your character is standing on the first frame after waking up.)


#4

Scarlet terror has several grounded frames, you do not get air reset out of meaties when you wake up with scarlet terror , you get a grounded counterhit for your trouble. That is why wake up scarlet is generally always a bad idea unless you predict a throw coming.

Such a thing is easy to test with vega himself in training mode, you just record one of vega’s safejumps and try to ST it yourself.

The following will be your result.

[media=youtube]Vn5liKwB3RI[/media]

Sorry for the quick ghetto video, but you can probably still make out that i am using hk.ST, you can see it come out, because my side says “Reversal” but i get hit grounded and the opponent gets “counter hit” wich is 25% more damage and more time to get more juicy combo’s.

This is why vega has such a horrible wakeup, when your opponent wants to be fancy with throws and stuff he puts himself in unneccesary risk against vega.
Because a safejump or walk up cr.lp or cr.lk with proper option selects will beat litterally anything vega can do. (sans U2 if the jab or short takes long to recover)
hakans and cammy’s who do that throwing shit on your wake up, throw away their completly free and safe pressure against vega for something that can get them punished.

The only reason to do that as cammy or hakan is because they want to condition you to do ST one of the times they choose to just hit you. They can get huge payoffs then (especially cammy).

This is also the reason why a vega player will have to learn to block everything, its your only solid option at wake up. kkk flip, throw and backdash at rare times to keep them on their toes, but basicly just block.

I hope this helps.


#5

Thanks for the clarification. People must have been doing bad meaties on me this whole time.


#6

Dive kicks or jumpins might be timed a little late, not quite meaty, on purpose in order to also hit a potential backdash. Or, because they want to be ambiguous but don’t have enough time to get into an ambiguous position AND be meaty.

I utilize wakeup ST in order to accept an air-reset now and then, but never as my go-to defense. It’s really just an attempt to break the flow of a rushdown but a player with good reactions won’t be slowed down. Still, it works more often than it should to steal back breathing room.


#7

I think a difference has to be made between grounded frames, initial airborne frames, and real airborne frames.

When you jump, it takes 3 to 5 frames to go from jump startup to fully airborne frames : for example, at first frames your character will just push himself into the air but will still have one foot on the ground. Your character is neither fully airbone, neither grounded during those.

Depending on how early you’re being hit, those initial frames wouldn’t get you a reset but a straight combo for the opponent. However, you are airborne, meaning unthrowable to any grounded throw. And that since the very first frame. That how ST works to beat grounded throws : it’s just airborne, even if it’s not fully airborne until the 4th frame.

Past that 4th frame, you would be fully airborne, and get a reset.

Still, some attacks (like Guy’s izuna, Cammy’s hooligan grab, and Claw’s izuna) can grab both grounded and airborne opponents. ST’s airborne status won’t help against those. =)

ST has another interesting property, this being that it has no low hitbox since the 2nd or 3rd frame : Claw is just horizontal, you could kick anything you want it will just pass under him. Meaning it could beat low attacks which would normally frame-trap him (for example cMP after RCF). Plus it’s hitbox (specially EX version) has initial priority right in front of you, and not upwards (where your hurtbox is fully exposed).

So, if the opponent goes for a slow normal, a throw, or a kick, if he does not hit you for at the first frame chances are that you will reverse effectively with a wake-up ST. It could beat focuses too. That’s not bad for a reversal, despite of the lack of invincibilty (for example both Cammy’s and Ryu’s DPs aren’t armor break).

All of this makes me think it has been designed as a usable ground reversal, but willingly with big flaws against jump-ins. Just as the rest of our character. =)