Warriors Fate: Street Fighter story thread, revived


#17922

Yep the whole teleporting/flying thing didn’t come about until the Alpha series, in turn based on the Animated Movie. At the end of the day its just a theory anyway. his Capcom vs SNK incarnation (presumably his SF2 body) his him capable of those things, even if its non-canon.

I seem to remember Psycho Power being named before the Animated Movie, but can’t recall where. I remember a lot of publications named the Psycho Crusher the “Flaming Torpedo” until it was named in the home ports:

Exactly was I was thinking: He’s more than capable of absorbing projectiles (like in CVS2) and throwing projectiles himself, he just chose not to do it in IV not due to physical limitations, but because he simply didn’t do it (let’s be honest, why throw a projectile when you can just turn your whole body into one?). He doesn’t need Rose for any of that.


#17923

I’ll also add that the first media featuring Bison reflecting projectiles is also the animated movie. He reflects Kens hadoken atop the VTOL when he kidnapped him.


#17924

I can check my original English release of Kanzaki’s SF2 manga. That predates the animated movie and I’m pretty sure the psycho crusher was named there.

I also wish Balrog was more like the 'Rog in Kanzaki’s manga or the animated movie…a tough gangster that would obviously be valuable to Shadaloo instead of a borderline racist moron.


#17925

The first thing I want to say is this:
Yes, the name “Psycho Crusher” was there from the beginning. You can find it in the “Street Fighter II Turbo” manual for the Super Nintendo. And it’s of course also in the Masaomi Kanzaki manga.
The term “Psycho Power” on the other hand: I was quite surprised to find out that this term was actually not used back then. The manual only talks about his psychic abilities, but doesn’t use the name “Psycho Power”. And it isn’t in the manga either. I’d really like to know if this name was used anywhere before the anime.


#17926

That’s what I mean. The whole premise that he possesses a power called ‘Psycho Power’ I believe originated from the anime which fleshed it out by taking the basic gist of it (which was introduced in the game) to its logical conclusion. The Alpha/Zero era then built on that even more.

Gill also has a ‘Psycho Headbutt’ attack but it has nothing to do with Psycho Power, similarly I believe the initial naming of the Psycho Crusher was just that.


#17927

I’ll also point out something else that bothers me…

Why the HELL are we calling the Shun Goku Satsu “Instant Hell Murder”? That’s literally backwards. It should be “Instant Heavenly Murder”. Goku means “From heaven”. The most accurate translation would probably Instant Divine Murder as divine means “from heaven” in the English language.


#17928

Now the other topic:

This is where I disagree. After all, the games are about one-on-one battles. In the game, you have to defeat Bison with a single fighter. So, if you declare that, in canon, he can only be defeated if many fighters attack him at once, then you have a too big gap between story and gameplay.

Back in the old days, Bison was a dangerous opponent, sure. He could jump all around the place or on your head, he could attack you with his Psycho Crusher and the Scissor Kick. But if one competent martial artist lands a straight blow on his face, it did hurt him.
The SF2 final was supposed to be a one-on-one fight and everybody had the chance to defeat him if one was just good enough. Therefore, the story and the gameplay were pretty much in harmony with each other.

But while there were 15 possible endings that showed Bison’s defeat at the hands of one fighter each, in today’s canon it took five of them at once to defeat him. And even then, he wasn’t truly defeated, but just decided to teleport away.

Compare this (after he was defeated by one single fighter):

To this:

And compare this:

To this:

Yes, the new version of Bison is much more powerful. But I prefer the more down-to-earth portrayal of the older games, not the Super Saiyajin of today.

For example, there is a nice scene in Masaomi Kanzaki’s manga where Bison demonstrates the effect of his drug: They have captured a cop and now they give him a gun. The cop points the gun at M. Bison. But since he’s under the influence of the drug, he cannot bring himself to pull the trigger. Instead, he points the gun at himself and shoots himself.
I believe that in today’s canon, Bison cannot even be killed or seriously injured by a regular gun. And if he can, he could probably dodge the bullet. So, this scene wouldn’t work anymore.

And since this is not some shoot em up where you fight a screen-filling boss, but a one-on-one fighter where both fighters have an identical life bar, I don’t like the idea that a fighter is totally overpowered in canon while he’s just a slightly more powerful fighter in gameplay.


#17929

Oh I agree that I like a more MORTAL Bison. My favorite portrayal is the SF movie where I do believe a gun to the face would totally kill him. However, I like him being a step beyond people like Ryu & Ken because it gives them that mountain to strive towards. It also means them winning is an accomplishment, not a given. If Guile can beat Bison (canonically, there’s no way…nor conceptually should he be allowed to), then he’s just “some guy”. Bison should be as big a mountain as Akuma. Beating him SHOULD be something to work towards, not something that’s a given…something on the horizon for the characters.

Otherwise you start getting into a continuous power creep that gets kind of old.

I will definitely agree again, however, that I do not like Bison being all super-saiyan, as you said. Floating? Cool that was CREEPY AS HELL in the animated movie. Teleport? Sure. Telekinetics? Within reason. And, of course, the mind control.

The real problem (as usual) is Akuma and his fanboy stupidity. He does such nonsense in the games (which I really don’t think we should take that seriously…) that for Bison to be on an even tier as a villain (which he should be…if not higher) he also has to do stupid stuff.

The fact of the matter is that Akuma’s portrayal has been ROUTINELY damaging to the canon of Street Fighter because it’s escalated power levels to stupid points that make it ludicrous and silly at times. It’s too over the top and not visceral.


#17930

Because someone in the plot guide claimed that the attack works in a way that it transports the victim to hell.

Although I don’t really understand what was meant:
Did they mean that the attack teleports the fighter’s body to hell during the time when the screen turns white, there the fighter gets killed by demons, and then the dead body gets teleported back?
Or did they mean that, if you die by the Shun Goku Satsu, your soul will end up in hell, no matter where it would have ended up had you died in another way?


#17931

Yeah but I mean…that’s not what the Japanese translates to. It’s a TOTAL fabrication. JIgoku means hell. Goku means “from heaven”. So the name literally means “Instant Divine Murder”…not “Instant Hell Murder”

What they mean is, they wanted to fap Akuma really hard and make it seem like the dude commands legions of demons because he’s so friggin’ metal!!! Ugh…


#17932

Of course it’s a fabrication. Like so many stuff in the plot guide.

Well, in the old portrayal, Bison is still a step beyond the others: His attacks are more impressive and they deal more damage. He is quicker and can jump higher than the others.
He’s still not just some guy. He is the typical boss fighter: If you want to defeat him, you have to be really good. But if you are really good, if you evade his attacks and can land some good blows on him, you can defeat him, even if you’re Zangief or Dhalsim:

I believe that in today’s canon, Dhalsim would be literally physically unable to defeat Bison.

To make a comparison:
In the old canon, defeating Bison was like some street crook beating up Batman.
In the new canon, defeating Bison is like some street crook beating up Superman.

Or Rocky Balboa defeating Clubber Lang vs. Rocky Balboa defeating the Hulk.

Why do you think Guile couldn’t beat M. Bison? I would say, from the original SF2 cast, he’s the third most-likely fighter to defeat Bison.

And yes, Akuma is a force that unbalances everything. If we assume that Ryu will eventually defeat him, this means Ryu’s power must have always ben on a huge level. Which is in stark contrast to the original SF1 where you defeat somebody and he tells you: “What strength! But don’t forget there are many guys like you all over the world.”

In my opinion, the fighters should basically only be as strong as they are in gameplay.
If you want to make Akuma the strongest and most dangerous fighter, do it analoguous to his in-game appearance: In a way that he never stops moving in battle and never gets dizzy, that he blocks your attacks and instantly counters with a three-hit hurricane kick, followed by a red multi-hit fireball. That he jumps and shoots two fireballs to the ground and when you block them, he slides towards you and throws you, followed by another hurricane kick, followed by a multi-hit dragon punch.
No need to establish that he’s actually literally untouchable by anybody unless they possess some deep mystic power to counter his.


#17933

Well Bison’s Psycho Power to some extent was still grounded in SF reality, in the same way a character like Psycho Mantis did not destroy the visceral realism of Metal Gear Solid. It was acceptable for fighters to manifest and manipulate chi to defeat one another in SF, Bison was still doing just that. Bison was and still remains several notches above everyone but was still keeping it “real”, even in the SF2 Animated Movie. Bison’s psychic abilities are also a part of a well established psuedo-science in the public conscience and pop culture, so it can pass as “believable”.

Most everything introduced by Shadaloo is relatively believable Sci-Fi as well. Cloning, genetic engineering, and cybernetic enhancements are all very real concepts which are already in the early stages of becoming scientific fact. Even transferring his essence from body to body can be explained through a more sci-fi route (even though this is a psycho power related ability) like in the Sixth Day film.

Things that destroyed the realism (for lack of a better word) of the SF universe IMO are Akuma first and foremost. You introduce a character that can one shot even the strongest fighters, then he can one shot mountains, then we really jumped the shark when he became a literal demon in the form of Oni. The Street Fighter Assassin’s Fist series picked up on this and has SNH literally MUTATE the user. Akuma has caused the SF power levels to sky rocket into Marvel territory and is by far the worst offender. If he keeps this up, he will blow up the moon in his SFV ending (and breathe in space).

SF3 also took it to another level with the Illuminati (Gill mainly), which upon release was so eccentric. Today it feels so tame, I’m curious to see how they will revive and reimagine them in SFV if they make it in.

Twelve. They could’ve kept it basic or limited shapeshifting of the arms and legs (like the T-1000 in Terminator II), but the guy can become a fucking kite. It was a leap.

Ingrid. That’s all I’m saying. Now please, we must go back to pretending she doesn’t exist. Quickly!

Bison’s “psycho wormhole” in SF4 is definitely jumping the shark. I love the guy and I’m rooting for him but WTF was that Ono?

We also saw Evil Ryu take bullets in the SF4 OVA, which doesn’t make sense for him. If it were Bison taking the bullets I’d believe it because Bison knows telekinesis.

I disagree also with your comment DRW about how characters should be as strong as they are in-game. That game has to be somewhat balanced with even good and bad match ups for most everyone, this is for fun, competition, and adds replay value. The story elements are more liberal in their approach to power and should not be confined by the game.


#17934

I pretty much agree with Daemos.

I don’t mind Twelve really…and I actively like Necro. I think he’s awesome.

The worst offender is Akuma by far. He’s just out of control and everything after Alpha basically become absurdly stupid Akuma-wank material instead of, y’know, actually developing him as a character or having an interesting story.

Oh! By the way…

I forgot to mention since I was away from the boards…and I know this isn’t directly SF related but it IS related to my love for fighting games…

During my trip to Hong Kong and with some subsequent over-seas contacts, I managed to finally get every issue of the HK King of Fighters manhua for KOF 2000, KOF 2000 0X, KOF 2001 and KOF 2002. In complete. Several hundred issues…finally in my hands. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with HK comics at all, but they are a NIGHTMARE to hunt down and KOF 2000 0X (the one I wanted most…) is very hard to find. With the KOF Zillion, KOF 99, KOF 2013 and KOF XENON comics I already had, that completes my collection. I am considering shooting for the SF manhua next but, honestly, they’re nowhere near as good as the KOF series in art or content.

Just thought I’d share. I’ve been pursuing this collection for about a decade and a half and it was insane to finally get them all in hand :smiley:


#17935

Oh also…funny fact…

Despite having previously claimed to have nothing to do with it, Vasili is all over the Street Fighter wiki working to keep things from getting edited to correct information from what was wrong in the plot guide. I can tell by his weeaboo garbage and babel-fish translations in the talk pages.


#17936

He’s still spewing his bullshit over at Capcom Unity and the SFV story thread here. :confused:

Oh and congratulations on completing your collection. :slight_smile:


#17937

I might have found a place where Psycho Power was mentioned before the anime. But it is a translation and it was posted by Vasili, so…

The caption of this artwork from SF2 (even pre-“Champion Edition”, as evidenced by the lack of any symbol on Bison’s hat) in a “SF2 pre-mook” apparently says:
“Lord Vega, the psycho power’s extinguishing of intensity.”
“I’ve lost my astuteness.”

Unfortunately, the caption in “Complete File Street Fighter II” only apparently says:
Fighting wounds still no injury.
"I’ve lost my astuteness."
Even in the face of the invincible fighting king, it gradually invites irritation.

Otherwise I would have posted the caption from that book.

So, is anybody able to get this SF2 pre-mook where the artwork was published, so that we can validate if the caption really uses the Japanese equivalent of the term “Psycho Power”?

Yup, that’s pretty much my opinion as well.
Please don’t misunderstand me: I’m not saying that SF should be more realistic. The unrealistic stuff has been there from the beginning, with Ryu shooting fireballs and Geki being able to teleport. So, sure, Bison being able to do all these techniques like the Psycho Crusher etc. is still fine with me.

What I dislike is merely the discrepancy between gameplay and story:

If Bison is a character who can only be defeated by five opponents at once who battle him for hours, then this should be reflected in gameplay:
Make him a non playable character with a life bar five times bigger than a regular one. And he can only be hurt by special moves. Regular punches and kicks won’t harm him.
O.k., probably not the best solution for a fighting game, so you should go the other way:

Give Bison some strong and impressive attacks and techniques. But in this case, this should be reflected in the plot. He shouldn’t be immune to most attacks. If a skilled fighter can dodge his psycho attacks long enough and can land a series of good blows, he should be able to defeat Bison. It shouldn’t be established that Bison can only be weakened by a powered-up Kamehameha. If a fighter like Zangief or Blanka decides to punch Bison in the face 50 times and if he actually manages to evade Bison’s own attacks, then it should work. Just like in the old games:

The only question should be: Would Blanka or Zangief be able to evade Bison’s attacks in the first place, so that they aren’t crushed by his psycho power before they get the chance to punch him in the face 50 times?
But the question should not be: Do Blanka or Zangief even possess the chi and the ancient techniques that are required to defeat Bison?

It would still not make Bison “just a regular guy”. He would still be the most powerful street fighter and therefore an actual obstacle and real threat.

Bison should only be “a mountain” to his opponents in the way Pai Mei from “Kill Bill” is: This guy doesn’t have any superpowers. If you poison his fish, he dies like everybody else. But in a one-on-one battle you cannot defeat him, simply because he’s so quick that he won’t let you touch him and his attacks are so powerful that you can’t stand many of them before you’re beaten to a bloody pulp. But if you manage to land a solid hit, it will hurt him. He’s not immune to attacks, he’s just that good that he won’t let them hit him.

Bison’s “untouchability” should be based on the fact that he’s the ruler of an international crime organiztion who doesn’t show himself much. And in the rare occasions where you meet him face to face, he’s still an extraordinary martial artist with techniques that are still far more powerful and agile than your own.
It should not be based on the fact that Bison can protect himself with some energy shield and that only fighters with similar energies can harm him, while he wouldn’t even get a scratch if you dropped a wrecking ball on him.

In this case, why should Bison (or any other character who is overpowered in the storyline) be a playable character anyway? They should reflect his story-powers in gameplay and simply make him non-playable. Or add a non-playable “true” version of him, so that the players can use the regular version.

They did it right with Akuma in SSF2T: They gave him some stronger attacks, a teleportation move and the hardest AI of the whole game.

This can be reflected in a story: If you want to create an anime based on SSF2T, you wouldn’t have to make him literally invulnerable. To show that he’s the strongest fighter, you could do exactly the same that you also see in gameplay: Some random fighter tries to fight him and that fighter gets punched, kicked and “fireballed” left and right, without the slightest chance to ever land a hit. But if you concentrate and if you’re quick and if you block his attacks and if you counter with your own attacks, then you can defeat injure him like every other human being.


#17938

I see what you mean and to some extent I agree that there should be unplayable and single player mode only versions of certain characters (in this case Bison) where it is a ingame more accurate representation of their power. The whole “shin” variation is an excellent tool at conveying these points and should be used.

We’ve also seen dramatic mode where more than one character fight together against one stronger one before. So this isn’t out of the ordinary.

So long as these elements are confined to single player, you can pretty much get away with whatever.


#17939

DRW nice find with the Psycho Power. I can look to see if I can find that stuff in any of my import Capcom books and try to verify.

Also, in the midst of a discussion on the Unity boards about the Shun Goku Satsu.

As best as I can find, the plot guide has been 100% wrong about the translation of that technique.

It should literally be Flash Prison Murder. Here’s my break-down reposted from there…

地獄 is Jigoku which is Hell in Japanese (Chinese too). However, just 獄 is Prison. They’re two totally seperate things. Being in the second half of Jigoku doesn’t mean it means hell any more than it means Prison Guard because it’s part of the kanji for Prison Guard too.

Prison also makes far more sense than “Hell” since the SGS has nothing to do with Hell. It, is, however, supposed to be inescapable.

That’s not where this ends though.

瞬 doesn’t mean “Instant”. It means “Flicker” or flash/wink/blink. Instant is 瞬時 (a moment/instant). In fact, we know this really well knowadays because 瞬 is also the kanji used in Bleach and Naruto for “Flash Step” and “Body Flicker” respectively.

Thankfully, at least the 殺 is correctly translated as “Murder”.

So we get “Flashing Prison Murder”

But that couldn’t be it, right?

Except when you get hit with the SGS you are grabbed (imprisoned), the screen flashes and you are dead.

Flashing Prison Murder.

Not Instant Hell Murder.

//

So…yeah. It’d be something like Flashing Imprisonment Murder. Which…actually sounds like a total literal name for what happens when Akuma uses the attack in the game.

EDIT

The rabbit hole goes deeper.

Just checked my SFA2 English guide book and IT lists the name as Instant Hell Murder. Can anyone find an older reference in English using that name? This looks like it might just be an OLD mistranslation that somehow made its way into the plot guide and then into common use. I compared the Alpha 2 book to the Zero 2 Perfect Guide book and, sure enough, it’s listed in there simply as “瞬獄殺”…which, as we’ve broken down, is Flash Prison Murder. And, guess what! Verified in the same book they use “Jigoku” 地獄 for Ken’s Hell Wheel Throw. And that IS properly translated to “Hell Spin Throw” in the Alpha 2 book. So…wtf?! Is this just a simple mistranslation, or is it possible the SGS was put in as Instant Hell Murder to make it more in line with the “demonic” spin that Akuma originally had in English? Hmm. While I wait to go to a BBQ I’m gonna do some more investigation.

MORE EDIT!

Just checked in All About Zero 3…and there it’s referred to as both the Shun Goku Satsu and しゅんごくさつ which, and please correct me if I’m wrong, is literally “shungokusatsu”. I can’t find any older references in English to Instant Hell Murder other than the Alpha 2 book. Is this maybe our “Patient 0” for where that translation comes from?


#17940

Personally I feel Bison should be portrayed in the same way Krauser is in the Fatal Fury 2 anime. Krauser’s simply at another level skill-wise and it takes Terry 2 attempts to defeat him, due to his having a counter for everything (and making snarky remarks the whole time). Terry was just able to take opportunity of an opening and land the hits he needed to take him down. Krauser is feared by everyone, even the bad guy of the series (Krauser is hardly the most evil guy around, infact he’s not evil at all, he’s just really powerful). Now imagine Bison portrayed like that - countering everything and only fallable should the player find an opening to combo him, it should be done in my book.

Shame everyone would be like: “Why did Ryu defeat Bison with a hurricane kick when he can just teleport and do a full-screen Psycho Crusher whilst recharging himself through his magic shoulder pads (lol) so he can do another one?”

On another note, I was reading that article detailing the troubled production of the SF Movie, and it states Steven De Souza was sent material from Capcom detailing what storyline directions the Street Fighter game series would possibly be going in in the years ahead. The one he liked (and made it into the film in a way) was Bison being portrayed as a James Bond-style villain with a secret island base filled with missiles and nukes and his own private army. Presumably he saw that illustration detailing Shadaloo HQ but one can wonder what else was being planned at that point, if that was only one possibility out of many.


#17941

That is actually the exact portrayal of Bison in the SF2 Animated Movie. He was infallible until that one combo did him in. But more precisely, it was and it still is Bison’s arrogance that will be his undoing. That is his one true weakness and ultimately it will be his downfall.