You sure seem determined to consider a non-canon thing canon. Time to face the facts.
Except C. Viper asks “who wants to know?” at Cammy’s “who are you?”. This is a completely illogical conversation to be having if they fought before. C. Viper was already likely to know of Cammy’s identity in some way, as she knew about Chun Li being from Interpol when they fought, but now you add to the stakes, you say she saw her, fought her and didn’t even go to the trouble of investigating her identity? Or are you gonna pretend that they both happen to say weirdly specific first time meeting dialogue?
Bad writing this isn’t. I mean, it might be as well, but it’s a clear first time meeting dialogue, it couldn’t be more obvious. You are trying to fit the evidence to your liking to fit into your perfect SF4 sudo-narrative, much like a certain plot guide writing fellow.
Thanks man, you explained it way better than I did.
Yet they do not know each other. You can meet someone, get into a brief fight and still not know anything about them. You are assuming that Viper would bother to research Cammy, when what Viper says suggests that she didn’t or that she did, but couldn’t figure her out. Cammy isn’t interpol.
Point 1 - We know that person A and person B, who don’t know each other, fought.
Point 2 - We know that about 6 months later they met again, and enquired about each other’s identity, before fighting once more.
So we have 3 choices here, either you dismiss the first point as false, or the second point as false, or accept them both as true and work around/suffer the implications of each. For me the second or third choice are the most logical, and by Occam’s Razor are the simplest or the one’s that require the least number of assumptions.
There is a MOUNTAIN of evidence for the OVAs being canon, no it may not be PERFECT (what SF game’s canon is?) but if this were a courtroom you would have to present something more solid than what you are presenting to win the case.
Can I absolutely say that the OVAs are canon? No, I am not Capcom (or Vasili for that matter).
Can I say that the OVAs, when everything is taken into consideration and hearing both sides, are more likely canon than not? Yes, I can.
What you are presenting is at worst a mistake, bad writing, or simply an oversight by Capcom. No different than a blooper or a plothole in a movie. At best, you are showing that the case for the OVAs being canon is not airtight, something we discussed several pages back and knew of/admitted to already.
But be reasonable, what you are presenting cannot logically negate all the evidence for the OVAs being canon. And if you don’t want to be, suit yourself, good luck making sense of SF2, SFA3, and SF4 without any of the OVAs. The choice is yours.
It completely negates the OVA’s existence because they quite clearly meet for the first time in Street Fighter 4. What I offered is more than enough to win the court case. It’s blatantly present evidence with no proper justification against it, no matter how hard you try.
I am sure the The Ties That Binds OVA has some pertinent information that is canon, how BLECE works, etc. But the actual story inside it did not happen.
‘Completely negates the OVA’s existence’, lol. You clearly have made up your mind and are already dealing in absolutes. Why are you debating me? Go cherry pick the parts of the Ovas that are canon and fit your narrative and then sleep better at night. Goodluck.
I obviously meant “negates the OVA’s existence” in the canon. I am not implying that the animation has now vanished in thin air. Is the best answer you can come up with? You’re pretty desperate.
Not to mention that despite the fact you said Goodbye and seemed to imply our discussion was over, you will very likely answer this post.
Edit: Also, the one dealing in absolutes is you. I proved the OVA can’t be 100% canon and you can’t accept that fact just because some of it seems to fit in pretty well with the games.
I didn’t say goodbye, I said goodluck. You clearly have a problem with reading.
You ‘proved’ the ovas aren’t 100 percent canon, amazing. But we knew this already (for a very long time) and no one ever claimed that they are absolutely (again you seem incapable of reading), I don’t know why you’re acting like you discovered a new planet or something.
But the Ovas are still more likely canon than not. Not 100 percent, but 95, 90, 80, hell even 70 or 60 percent. It is still more chances than them not being canon.
Why would I be desperate again? There are many points of view on the canon, different schools of thought so to speak, mine isn’t the only one, but based on evidence it is the only one for me at the present time.
Your evidence may cast some doubt, but it is insufficient for a dismissal.
You…fucking realize that CAPCOM is the ones that have butt-fucked their canon for just about 20 years right? That they’ve fucked up left and right, re-written, retcon’d and ignored things repeatedly and, generally, not given half of a fuck when necessary up to and including in SF4? I mean, you DO UNDERSTAND that we aren’t WRITING the canon but rather attempting to interpret something that is, unfortunately, often handled by colossal fuck-ups that don’t do their job correctly?
Ask me Mortal Kombat and I can rattle off canon facts for you left and right and give you a thorough education on its canon with VERY LITTLE GRAY AREA because Netherealm (Boon & Tobias really) have consistently given a shit about both their characters and the overall property they’re handling. This is not so with SF which went from the crown jewel to the red-headed step-child of Capcom. In fact, you can almost plot the trajectory of “Makes sense” to “the fuck?” as SF becomes less and less popular and gets out of the hands of the people that originally created it and had a vision for a story in it.
That you found something inconsistent between the OVA and a throw-away line of dialogue in the game registers as little more than “Yeah lulzCapcom” to most SF canon aficionados BECAUSE we’ve seen how often they fuck up or contradict themselves or just outright forget things. Logic time: Does one find it more reasonable that Capcom invested money into story animations like the two featured in the fucking game itself to try and put together a coherent narrative and an inconsistency in a SINGLE LINE between two characters is (shock) just that…a “lulzCapcom” stupid thing (or even a matter of fuzzy logic if it isn’t outright contradictory)…or did Capcom spend all that money to have those movies NOT be a part of the games story (when really those movies would account for somewhere around 80% of the entire spoken and animated story linked to the game) and further sow confusion while cleverly putting in contradictory information in the game in the form of ONE intro as a tip-off for people to be “clued in” to what’s really going on?
Honestly? The latter sounds like it would take WAY more effort on Capcom’s part and, believe you me, effort is NOT in their vocabulary. Shit, have you HEARD of Capcom??
This is just like nonsense about Gouken & Gen being ooooh spoooky ghosts as some unbelievably weird, hidden story that people would REALLY have to dig into to understand. As if the story of SF4 was fucking Inception. Yeah. No. It’s just retcons and generally sloppiness of storytelling. IE Capcom’s je ne sais quoi. They’ve done it before and will do it again. Hell, they hit it HUGE with SF4 and were still too stupid and lazy to do anything but TOTALLY phone in SFxT when they could have had a HUGE, awesome crossover story. Nope. Pass. They’ll just fart out a piece of shit that destroys a huge part of their credibility. Y’know what we say? LulzCapcom.
The goddamn point Daemos is making can best be summed up as “No shit there’s inconsistencies. Capcom’s stupid as hell. The OVAs are still basically the best representation of events, however flawed some parts of they, or other parts of the game in relation to them, may be. LulzCapcom, dude”.
As a comparison, this is the company that can’t make a halfway decent story in ONE STUDIO for ONE GAME while Netherealm is coordinating full comic book prequel story arcs for the MKX property. It’s all degrees of competence, man. Capcom just isn’t that competent enough to say ANYTHING is “100% canon” when it comes to the full, larger story.
Sorry to poke holes but isn’t the reason Seth has all the copied fighting techniques was because of the Tanden device in his stomach? Also what exactly is the BLECE weapon in general? We know from the OVA it’s a weapon but it’s not nulcear, chemical or biologic, but it ties with the Hadou power more specifically Murderous Hadou. They never specifically state in game or OVA what the BLECE weapon really was or why it was so dangerous, other than the fact you wouldn’t be able to track it like a conventional weapon as it could be implemented into anyone. Was it some sort of “Satsui no Hadou bomb” where anyone that was implanted with it would become a walking bomb, surging murderous hadou through each and every cell in the human body to the point where they literally boil expand and explode within an instant.
Even though it’s not canon I always thought that Street Fighter II V had the best representation of what Hadou truly is without all the Satsui No Hadou stuff. When Ryu and Ken built up too much Hadou within their bodies they literally felt like they would explode because of the raw power they were handling, and they had to focus it into an attack in order to harness it. I think the BLECE weapon would work in that kinda of way, just forcing Hadou into every cell off a person until they explode with said energy.
BLECE is basically a poorly explained plot Macguffin and little more thanks to how vague it is.
Boiling Liquid Expanding Cell Explosion.
Yup. That’s about it. It killed a bunch of animals and apparently runs off of or interacts with ki energy, specifically negative chi energy.
If I had to hazard a guess, I’d say it’s a reverse Psycho Drive. We know Bison’s bodies die out and overload (or even explode) from too much of his energy. It is possible this phenomenon was weaponized into BLECE to overwhelm the cells of a being with negative chi, killing them by literally boiling the liquid in their cells until enough pop to kill the person. The Psycho Drive worked over long distances…if BLECE can it explains how dangerous it is.
This is, again, just my best guess given the dearth of information Capcom chose to gave about the ENTIRE POINT of the SF4 tournament. Good job, Capcom.
BLECE feeds off of the negative ki of others, which is born of hatred, selfishness, immorality, you name it. Seth wants to use it against humanity, controlling them by the darkness of their own hearts, with himself at the stick. And what better juice for such a weapon than practitioners of a fighting style that is made to kill, and fueled by murderous intent?
Simply put, Seth’s an anarchist and wants to rule the world by that principle, as well as prove himself superior to everybody, ESPECIALLY Bison.
And as much as I hate debates or drawing attention to myself during one, you might want to watch my videos again. They might help.
This is basically my understanding of BLECE, which I think it along with the basic concept of Seth is heavily inspired by Dr. Sadler’s experiments from the Street Fighter Alpha: The Movie animation.
The Psycho Drive like its name entails is an engine for Psycho energy, which is one type of chi, that only Bison can truly harness and manipulate. It was designed specifically by Bison for Bison. BLECE however can manipulate and weaponize all types of chi (not just negative energy), and since it can be operated mechanically it is not tied to any single person like the Psycho Drive. SIN is a corporation in the arms industry first and foremost so it is important for them that BLECE is marketable and user friendly. You can’t sell the Psycho Drive but you can sell BLECE.
The name BLECE (a very confusing acronym) I believe comes from the method of chi extraction, which involves causing the cells of a fighter to explode and releasing the chi stored inside, we see a glimpse of this in TTTB on the missing American soldier and the animals in the Amazon were implied to have been experimented on using this method as well. Compared to the Psycho Drive, the Psycho Drive did not ‘extract’ Psycho Energy from anyone and it is debatable whether the Psycho Drive actually generated Psycho energy parallel to Bison, but we know that the Psycho Drive was able to externally store and reroute Bison’s psycho power to either Bison or his orbital laser refractor.
Going back to BLECE, SIN needed Ryu because he possesses the ultimate form of chi and extraction of it would bring the BLECE project to its full potential. If they could extract Ryu’s chi (which would result in his death) and use it, then BLECE would’ve been a success at all levels basically.
The Tanden engine in Seth’s stomach is something else, think of it as a minor Psycho Drive. This is a cybernetic implant that was likely developed by Shadaloo and precedes SIN and the rise of Seth. Its purpose is to allow the Bison Shells or Host Bodies to withstand a great extent of Bison’s power if he were to ever need to inhabit them temporarily while his scientists develop another body. The Tanden engine most likely did NOT generate its own chi but it could augment your own chi, enhance it, and better handle it. I’m guessing Bison went to the trouble of doing this because it is probably cheaper and faster for him to produce many Bison shells than to produce one Bison body. Also his ego wouldn’t handle two Bison clones sharing the same air he breathes. I digress sorry.
So if the Tanden engine was made to withstand and handle a chi as potent as Bison’s, it shouldn’t have any problem handling huge doses of lesser chis like those of the fighters that have been absorbed into BLECE then rerouted into Seth.
We never saw all the ways the BLECE engine could’ve been weaponized but we saw them use it on a macro scale by generating pulses or blasts of energy that leveled the forest in TTTB and we saw it being utilized on the micro-scale by Seth individually, and later on possibly by Juri.
The FSE used by Juri is probably an even more advanced version of the Tanden engine or again mini-Psycho Drive, and was likely also able to augment and harness energy independently from BLECE (since Juri still had power at the end of SF4 when BLECE was destroyed). This implies that Juri innately is actually a strong fighter with a sizable amount of chi, which is why she was a good candidate for the FSE.
So to recap;
Psycho Drive, Tanden Engine, FSE - Enhance and augment individual chi, increase maximum individual chi threshold, Psycho Drive can focus and reroute energy to external weapons or Bison
BLECE - Can extract and be fed chi from numerous individuals (notice in the back of Seth’s stage the machine is surrounded by capsules with the silhouettes of people inside them), Enhance and augment chi from numerous individuals, increases maximum chi threshold, can focus and reroute energy into other machines (includes potential weapons and Seth).
There’s zero reason to believe that the big contrived and honestly dumb story of Ties That Bind or the Aftermath OVA’s happened at all when the only references to it are events that merely serve as set up for both the game and the movie (the missing martial fighters) and absolutely nothing else in the whole game, and THEN you add the fact that there is a direct contradiction between the movie and the game, to further disprove its canonicity.
The OVA’s are not the best representations of any events because there’s no reason to believe its events ever happened in the first place, if we go by the same logic any of the million comic books related to Street Fighter happened too.
Ok, listen, you are basically as much of a brick wall as Vasili is, so speaking to you is a waste of our time. To yourself and us a favor and move on, because all you’re doing is causing trouble, and there’s enough of that here as it is.
And yes, Capcom did spend all the money on making those movies without caring if it was part of the story or if it fit at all, most likely ignoring said material while working on the game. Why? As you yourself said: “Lulzcapcom”. They were designed to hype you up for the game in the case of the trailers and to serve as a neat collector’s edition gift in the case of the OVA. Not to clarify any of the canon. Indeed, you can easily see that’s the case because the OVA clarifies nothing at all.
And there proves my point. You have nothing plausible to bring to this table than the necessity to be right, which you aren’t. What you are doing is causing headaches. I’m blocking you. I recommend everyone else to do the same.
Regarding the Tanden Engine I’d also point out some stuff regarding fighter lore/chi methodology…
The Tanden is where drawn energy is gathered…it’s basically the storage point for chi. It’s where it would be balanced for usage in an individual. It’s also literally your balance point. It is basically the site of your chi reservoir.
Logically, the “Tanden Engine” would be just that…a huge engine in the tanden point that creates/balances chi energy. Assuming different chi’s are used for different combat styles and their maneuvers (something supported by SnH vs Meritorious Intent and other forms of chi etc in the series) this would go a long way to explaining Seth’s ability to use ANY combat technique he can learn and do so easily. The Tanden Engine removes all the guess work and effort of chi-management for the user. Since we know the Seth’s are BUILT to withstand chi at high levels, this poses no risk for them.
The Feng Shui engine would work much the same way…but it seems to lack the chi-manipulation ability of the Tanden Engine, instead just boosting the users natural chi instead of manipulating it. Might be why Seth does the whole Ying/Yang coloration when he uses his energy while Juri’s just increases her purple crazy-chick chi. One is balancing/creating chi from physical/spiritual force (the yin-yang source of chi in SF) where-as with Juri it’s just boosting. This would also make sense since, as a flesh & blood human, Juri’s body isn’t equipped to handle the output from the Tanden Engine.
Take this as you will. It’s HEAVILY speculation drawing from a lot of different sources including SF’s history. As usual, Capcom has done a shit job of directly representing much of this in a useful manner.
I guess this is probably the best place to dig for answers to my questions on the SF story.
-Are the handheld-exclusive SFA3 characters (Ingrid, Yun, Maki, and Eagle) considered to have cannonically appeared in the SF story during the events of that game? I know a lot of SFA3 is already disproven, but I’m confused as to non-child Yun and Ingrid actually existing at that time.
-How much info do we have on the Dolls? I know there’s one for every calendar month or something, but I don’t know how much difference there is between individual dolls (“does only Decapre have blades?”) and how much involvement other characters had with the project. (Dictator/Rose, maybe Claw since he heads assassinations?)
-Can other Anatsuken practitioners (Ken, Sakura, Sean, Dan) use the SnH or is that something only Ryu/Akuma can use?
-Does Bison still have Boxer/Claw under his employ after SSF4?
-Does Urien have any actual story interaction with someone other than Chun-Li or Gill?
And, I have an odd theory that maybe you guys could provide some evidence for or against. We all know that Remy “moves on” after SF3 by throwing his sister in a lake and leaving, seeing a light in the distance. What if the “light” is connected to Shadowloo somehow, like a helicopter searchlight or something? We already know that Bison prefers henchmen with a simple vice that he can use as control (Claw=Beauty, Boxer=Money, Sagat=Ryu), so Remy’s desire to take revenge on his father and fighters in general would be easy for Bison to manipulate. If Nash/Abel actually is Remy’s father, Bison could use that information to lead him around against a common enemy, similar to what he pulled with Sagat. Especially if Bison knows Charlie is out hunting him during the events of SF3, it would make sense for him to take notice of a potential “ace in the hole” against Charlie and keep it in his back pocket.