We like wearing heels! Poison General Discussion/Q&A Thread

poison

#1021

Well I learn something new everyday.


#1022

We actually lost range on ex rekka

1.03

1.04

If you look at the back wall the pre patch hit box pretty much covered upto 2 squares past the red line, and now it only goes as far as one and a half past the red line.


#1023

So I found this set up before, it’s a 5 frame or slower safe jump from forward throw.

Forward throw, immediate back dash, immediate forward dash, j.hk

Since back dash and forward dash kill 39 frames and it safe jumps 5 frame reversals (cammy, decapre, sagat, Seth, fei, etc) but not 4 frame reversals since you would need to kill 38 frames for that.

Another option you could do on 5 frame or slower reversal characters is

Forward Throw, immediate HP Rekka whiff, J.LK

This only works in the corner as a safe cross up with the exception of it working midscreen on seth as well.


In the corner on guile you can do

Forward Throw, immediate forward dash, immediate Cr.Mk whiff, J.HK

This is a fake cross up. It has to be blocked normally (holding back). If blocked it hits front and we stay infront of guile keeping him in the corner.
On hit it crosses up deep like the backthrow cross ups on cody,blanka and elena. So its very deceiving for the opponent. All of guiles DP’s whiff.

You can also do
Forward Throw, immediate St.Mk whiff, immediate forward dash, J.LK

This is a cross up that if timed perfectly will also safe jump his flash kicks.

Great to mix him up with since if you do the J.HK set up it looks like a cross up but is not, and then if he blocks normal expecting the j.hk set up, you hit him with the safe cross up LK


#1024

She feels unchanged imo. Still top 10. =)

Yea but that’s just for the English language I guess. Because in German, there is no cock in this word. =D


#1025

Hey Tali how is the buff to EX KBG looking?


#1026

quite good actually

you can see it here http://decapre.com/post/105587877503


#1027

rekkas, backdash, j.hk
does not make cammy’s DP whiff anymore after the patch. Im curious as to what changed which would cause this. This sucks since that was an easy auto timed safe jump that you didn’t even need to OS u1 for since you can just react u1 the whiffed dp. It also gave you good pressure to take a step in and cr.mp xx ex lmt which would cross her up on crouch and on stand.


#1028

Rekkas, forward dash, N.J.HK
this 4F safe jump no long works against poison (mirror match)

for some odd reason, after we knockdown poison with a rekkas combo, she gets up much quicker, making that set up not work anymore (she will counter hit your N.J.HK with her DP)

also heres a tid bit of new tech from the match up thread i just updated with loads more.

against the twins

Rekkas, Forward dash, N.J.HK, Cr.MP xx EX LMT

If the safe jump get blocked, and you follow up with Cr.MP xx EX LMT, the EX LMT can not be crouch blocked (like an overhead), and has to be stand blocked

Once you condition them to stand block that set up do this

Rekkas, Forward dash, N.J.HK, Cr.MK xx EX LMT

By swapping Cr.Mp for Cr.Mk, you now make the EX LMT cross up on standing (warning, it whiffs on crouching though)

I have been abusing the shit out of these EX LMT mix ups, and at 200 damage a pop, or +2 on block, there is almost no down side


#1029

cr.lp cr.lp st.mk is a one framer?

Also what are some good frame traps with poison, and over all good safe jumps OS?


#1030

It’s pretty hilarious against Ibuki. A lot of guys at locals are freaking out about how stupid Poison is.

Never mind the fact Ibuki laughs at Poison


#1031

Cr.lp into St.mk is a 1 frame link. If you want consistency if you can’t hit it 100% then you can do Cr.lp into Cr.lk xx lp or ex rekkas.

For frame traps you want to utilize what’s going to give you advantage on block. Her Cr.lp, far.lk, cl.st.lk, cl.st.mp, cl.st.mk, mp/hp/EX fireball, and EX flip kick all have advantage on block.

Cr.lp has the standard +2 block advantage that you can mix up with a tick throw/over head/ frame trap

Far.lk is only +1 and leaves you at a range where you can only really do a Cr.mk, so not much use out of that for pressure.

cl.st.lk is +3 so similar to Cr.lp but better for tighter/beefier frame traps.

Cl.st.mp is +3 as well but is inconsistent since sometimes the second hit can whiffs based on a bunch of different factors, better off using cl.st.lk if you want that +3

Cl.st.mk is +1 on block but with the spacing it creates you can still mix up with tick throw/ over head/ frame trap. I try to use cr.lp after for a frame trap since it’s a 3f normal that will catch their crouch techs since it’s only +1. Remember overhead is really good at blowing up crouch techs.

Mp fireball is only 0 on block but depending on what normal you cancel it from, it doesn’t hit immediately on the first frame giving it frame advantage on block. For example if you have someone in the corner and you do a cr.mk xx mp fireball on them while their blocking, (best with as the tip of cr.mk as possible) you get enough frame advantage from the fireball that you can do another cr.mk and it will counter hit almost any normal they do. Only draw back is that it’s not a true block string and bad spacing can get you countered in between, and sometimes spacing or not doesn’t matter depending on what they can do in between (like guiles flash kick will beat cr.mk canceled into anything or just on Block since it’s -7)

Hp fireball is similar to mp fireball except that it gives +7 on block at point blank rather then 0 like mp, but start up is much slower so it’s never a true block string from any thing. Best way to set this up is using it meaty on someone’s wake up after a flip kick+follow up as it’s safe from all reversals and if they delay wake up its even meatier. I frame trap with this by doing cl.st.hk (1st hit) xx hp fireball. I think it’s only a 3 frame gap and if the cl.hk is a counter hit the fireball combos and gives me +10 at point blank to combo into cr.hp xx w.e for great damage and stun, and if the fireball is a counter hit same deal, and if blocked it’s +7

EX fireball is +2 and is always a true block string from your normals, so it’s really good since you can’t be countered in between your string and still get pressure afterwards. Best utilized when you corner the opponent to mix up with the other fireballs since mid screen the pushback doesn’t leave you in poking range to take advantage of that frame advantage, but that’s fine since it spaces you out mid screen which is what you would want.

EX flip kick is +2, and leaves you right in the opponents face, what’s good about this is that the move it self does 200 damage into a hard knock down, and on Block leaves you in perfect spacing to throw or frame trap. From a counter hit cr.hp xx EX flip kick only combos on about 2/3rds of the cast but when it does, it can give great pressure strings. For example.

Cr.lp/cl.lk, (tic throw mix up option), cr.hp xx EX flip kick > repeat

Since if the cr.hp frame trap lands counter hit from mixing up with tic throws, the flip kick combos for over 300 damage. If it’s blocked, you are +2 again and back in their face. Sometimes if they slip out a button between the cr.hp into flip kick, the flip kick will beat it most the time, and if that button was a low, the flip kick will always beat it.

For safe jumps check the updated match up thread that’s stickied. I have put together almost all the possible safe jumps against every character. In terms of OS, since a safe jump is already a counter for their reversal, your OS you want is something that would cover an escape option. Most of the time that’s a back dash, which you can universally OS sweep for (which leads into another 4f safe jump). You can also OS u1 for everyone except chun Li I believe.


#1032

also, we don’t drop out of chuns U1 when juggled in the corner anymore


#1033

Poison was ranked #2 on Eventhubs tier list recently.

Thoughts?


#1034

Bullshit.


#1035

Don’t believe me?

Here you go:
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/sf4/

At this rate, she’ll be nerfed even more in the next update.


#1036

It’s Eventhubs. What do you seriously expect from a Tier list that has Ibuki at No.8 and has Makoto and Zangief outside of the Top 30? It’s not worth discussing at all, I don’t like dogging on EH for being full of scrubs, but that tier list is doing a damn good job pushing me over the edge.

I’d have Poison in the Top 10, but pushing her to No.5 or above? No a chance. I’d put her around 7 or 8.


#1037

My tier list.

Has poison at 15. After that it’s not in any numerical order. Gen should be moved up a tier also.

Event hubs is filled with scrubs that don’t know shit


#1038

I still don’t see Decapre being in the Top 5 in the slightest. Strong, but I think you’re jumping the gun pretty hard because of 1.04.


#1039

just wait then. Easiest way i can put it is, she has almost all of cammy’s normals, and some that are better. She has 2 amazing ultras, one for pressure and mix up, the other for raw damage and utility. Her u2 is a 4F anti air and also a grounded 7F anti fireball ultra that is almost full screen. Her charge times are the shortest. Her hands pressure is free and safe, pushes to the corner, its similar to bisons scissor kick pressure but a bit more risky as she needs to use her dp a bit more to keep you honest to use it. Her DP has the most invincibility for a normal DP, and do great damage. Her EX air spiral, is pretty much cammy’s ex spiral, the only difference is that cammy’s ex spiral on block is AT BEST (max range landing on the last active frame, the tip of the boot) is safe, while decapres is AT WORST (point blank instant tiger kneed air spiral) safe, while in every other situation is + on block. This gives her an amazing, fully projectile invincibile move that gets her in at + advantage while also can be used as a nice frame trap too, AND YOU CAN POTENTIALLY JUGGLE COMBO IT ON HIT, and its deceptive too, since it comes out of no where off a back jump. She has a great vortex like cammy, using her scramble into dive kick, and mixing up with scramble fakes, feints and smash mix ups. She can do a meaty smash and be safe on block. Oh and her Cr.Hp can link into U2 on counter hit, or even meaty on some characters, and can be FADC’ed for +4. If you think cammy is an amazing character and a top 10 character, you have to think decapre is a better character then, its the same exact game plan, except the tools are better.

cammy wants to land a knockdown from a spiral arrow so that she gets her “vortex” which is the safe mix up of jump in attacks (dive kicks or not), and then her advantageous block oki (frame trap, throw, EX TKCS). So she can land that spiral arrow from a combo, or in footsies by poking/counter poking with her far.mp/cr.mk buffered with spiral arrow, or with an EX spiral arrow through a fireball. She also has good ranged pokes as well with st.mk, st.hk, cr.hp, far.hp, and good anti airs with her dp and cl.hp. Her u1 is good, it can get through fireballs, and can be comboed into from a DP. oh and the easy unblockable set ups don’t hurt either.

Decapre does the exact same things but better. Decapre to get that “vortex” does it from a LK slide knockdown. She can combo into this as well just like cammy can combo into her spiral arrow. She also gets the same advantageous block oki that cammy does since she has all of cammy’s buttons and throws pretty much, but she also has an overhead too. Since her vortex comes out of scamble mostly instead of normal jumps like cammy, she also gets the advantage of using feints where she can feint the scramble with the back teleport, or feint the smash, which is really effective since the feint is so quick, while the actual smash has a ton of block stun giving a very big gap in reaction timings. Like i said before, EX air spiral is almost always + on block, so its like cammy’s EX TKCS, except that what it does better is catching back dashes too since its far more horizantal. She can play the footsies just like cammy since she has all the same buttons, but her f.mp is now 5F compared to cammy’s 7F so its far far better, and since decapre buffers hands instead of spiral arrow, hands is safe on block at the max range, so if you slip up and it comes out on block, you are far less likely to be punished for your hands buffer coming out then cammy’s spiral arrow buffer coming out which is always punishable. Her U2 is more effective then cammy’s U1, since it is better at getting through fireballs, and is also an anti air ultra, and does way more damage from a DP fadc ultra then cammy’s. Decapre’s dp’s also have more invincibility and damage then cammy’s, and can juggle for way more damage then cammy’s. Oh and she has almost if not all of cammy’s unblockables too + more

If you can come to the realization that decapre is pretty much cammy, but better in almost every way since her buttons are better, her oki is better, her damage out put is better, and her overall versatility too, then you can see why I have her so high.


#1040

just don’t be shocked once someone comes out with a decapre that has unblockables down pat, safe jumps from all her knockdowns (air throw, hands, DP, throws, slide, spiral arrow, u2, etc) down pat, vortex mix up down pat (safe mix up pressure from slide and other knock downs), oki down pat, and their defense down pat (anti airing, counter poking, defending their life lead) and starts going on a tear in the tournaments. She’s to good of a character not to get picked up and shown off.

That’s why Im not so blinded by the hype that poison got, which also made her get nerfed. I saw Decapre’s potential before the uneeded buffs she got, and thought she was fundamentally much better at sf4 then poison. Poison has a very solid zoning game with her command fireballs that have great recovery, and all the juggle properties. And a good knockdown > safe jump > oki game (frame trap, throw, comboable overhead). She has some gimicky cross up/two way unblockable EX flip kicks, but gimicks are gimicks, only work maybe once or twice against a competent player. Her overhead is punishable on block, her throw range is the shortest, and her frame traps aren’t scary. Her “pressure” is negetive on block if it is a true string, or not a true block string if it is + on block. And aside from EX flip kick, all the other + on block “pressure” options do not leave you in throw range, so they don’t offer the threat of a throw, which means there is no reason to be teching, which makes it all the more reason to just block, which is why i said her frame traps aren’t all that scary.

So what im trying to say is that, poison’s overall scope is far more limited, but what she does, she does very well. And now that her funky hurtbox is not as funky as it was, her flip kick damage is nerfed, Her ex rekka range has been reduced, and her health has been gimped too, She isn’t TOP 10 material i don’t think. That limited scope is also apparent when you can be counter picked so hard by low tier characters. Poison get’s counter picked hard by blanka, dhalsim, and seth (seth not low tier, but he has what makes dhalsim difficult, stretchy arms and a fireball combo, while also having a dive kick and a full screen anti projectile ultra that leads into a mix up).

and then on the flip side, you have decapre whose scope is far wider, and she does all those things very well too. And her “counter picks” from what i hear are hugo and (a now much more gimped) zangief. Those “counter picks” can be easily countered with a decent zone game with another character. Shit, just pick up chun li for those 2 match ups and your solid, you are already using a charge character who also has a mashed out move, and also has to down charge their anti air and use different anti air buttons in different situations, it shouldn’t be hard to pick up chun for those 2 match ups. Or pick up poison, should be even easier since the fireball game is stronger in those match ups and easier to zone with more fireballs then more normals like chun, atleast i think.