Wesker mixup/reset setups

wesker

#1

NEW!!! Adding videos as they come in. This should make it easier for people to see visual representations of what’s going on. Big thanks to kensanity and NissanZaxima for contributing so far

Some people have requested that I post up all the dumb mixups I do with Wesker, so I will. I’m posting this just to give a general overview of the different ways you can set up resets with Wesker. Some of this is slightly derivative (can’t think of everything) and other parts of it are quite frankly common sense. So I don’t expect all of this to be novel to the experienced Wesker player or even most of it for that matter. But hopefully there’ll be something in here you can use. Some of my different reset options I’ve never seen anyone else use and even if you know about some of these options, maybe this will give you a couple new ideas of WHEN to use them.

One other note before we get started. I’m going to write this in written flowchart form, simply because it’ll make organizing my thoughts easier, plus it plays into a central theme of the character, how easily mixups and reset options chain into each other. The two main areas to reset from are the air tech state and the ground roll state. Separate options come from each state. Personal opinion is that ground roll state provides the stronger individual mixup in the corner with a larger damage potential, but the air tech state is more important to get down. This is because Wesker has a difficult time creating a ground roll state on his own and usually relies on assists to create it, whereas he can create an air tech state on his own by following an air combo with the Samurai Edge. Not all air techs are created equal as height will play a factor in what you get. I can?t go through all different air tech heights off of each assist or from each spot given previous hit deterioration so at some point common sense will just take over and you can manually adjust for height. With all the minutia out of the way…

I. Air tech state. As said above, this state can be caused directly from the Samurai Edge, or from ending an air combo in the low air. If you are using an assist to juggle with that creates ground roll state, you can simply jab them and cause them to pop into air tech state since the jab will cancel the knockdown. From here your options are.

A. Standing S/double dash standing S. Not the greatest option but included for the sake of completeness. Normal standing S is decent if people are in the habit of teching forward without a good air mobility option because depending on where you?re standing they can cross themselves up. Follow up with standard air combo.
Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfmgxa4iC14 Standing S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awKnYHoTiWQ Double dash S

*B. Air throw. * Jump forward for backwards tech, jump straight up for forward tech. In the corner you can take a half step forward and jump straight up and catch both on the vast majority of characters. For some characters like Viewtiful Joe, their tech forward will still be caught by jump forward. This is your primary reset weapon. 7 frames to tech is not the most in the world; someone can have a pretty good idea that you?re going to throw and still be caught off guard. Inside of this option you have a self-contained mixup in that you can air throw as fast as you?re able to (especially if they enter air state off a jab), or you can air throw a few frames slower.
Video:

C. Near air loop. This is something I see few Wesker players do. The easiest way to avoid air throw is to mash on heavy when they see Wesker jump at them. This is your primary counter to this. Wesker’s near air loop is weight dependent. Generally you can do jump BCS, jump BCS, jump BCS. Some characters air tech strangely and require jump ACS, jump BCS, jump BCS. Some characters have stupid sprites like Dante and Amaterasu and you can only get jump ACS, jump ACS. All options can be followed with a standard air combo. On a backwards tech you need to jump forward. On a forward tech you can jump straight up on most characters. For an added dimension to the mixup you can dash forward then jump into them (causing Wesker to turn around before he jumps) crossing them up as they tech their way out of the corner.
Personal opinion is that you should start the first rep of the near air loop jump ACS on all non Sentinel/Hulk class characters. It will make your life significantly easier and will only cost you roughly 18,000 damage. Your mileage may vary, if you can get BCS BCS BCS to work for you on all character classes it is the best option and you should do it.
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4SZiiJ8IOc 3 reps here.

D. Ground crossup (midscreen). Sent in by NissanZaxima. Similar type setup to the double dash S, but mixing in a low. This warrants mention as a separate option for 2 reasons. When you let someone get close to the ground with Wesker they get a little jumpy and start to hit buttons. Both tend to lose to Wesker’s high priority lows. Useful to give someone a different look in a midscreen setup.

Your air tech state options can be applied off a character dropping in also. Very useful if you add snapbacks to your game.

II. Air to ground. This is created when your air attacks are blocked by the other character in the air in the vicinity of the ground. In a way it is a continuation off of a particular variant of IC. Let?s say the other character techs and blocks the near air loop. As they are falling try to get the S to be blocked as close to the ground as possible (as you will note, this is the timing for a successful near air loop anyways, so it isn’t an adjustment on the fly or anything). As the opponent’s feet touch the floor you can transition immediately to?

A. Mustang Kick. This is a particularly nasty mixup because the mustang kick is only 1 frame to startup and there is little to no blockstun penalty from the air to ground state. You can mustang kick from this situation faster than any character can mash out a light attack presuming the air S was blocked close enough to the ground.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhm-OEOCaTA

B. Crouch A/crouch B. There are very few pure 50/50 mixups in MvC3. This is one of them. The crouch attack will catch someone holding up back trying to avoid the mustang kick. If you are in the habit of kara-ing the mustang kick off of crouch B, I would recommend going for crouch B and adjusting the blocked S a tiny bit higher in the air. It will create the same physical mixup and also provide a very nice visual mixup.
Of course this presumes that the other side did not push block. Since many of the MvC2 pushblock penalties are not in place in MvC3, you cannot count on this often, especially as a chain from the standard near air mixup (in other situations you will get it much more often). Luckily for us, there is another option chained off of IC.

C: Overhead. This is an option I wanted to add here since I’ve been doing this lately to give people a different look after they get used to options A and B. You set both of these by setting up the last hit of your air string as low to the ground as possible. So normally you’re hitting S as close to the ground as possible. If you delay the S and do it right when they hit the ground, naturally they’ll have to block it high. You’ll find that after you do option IIA to people a few times in a row, they’ll start holding down-back expecting the low A and not expecting to hit the ground when they do. It’s not the greatest option in the world and adds blockstun meaning you can’t go straight to IIA or IIB afterwards, but it’s fun to do every now and then.
Video example. [media=youtube]_mYM5Sm2c1c[/media]
Unsuccessful try at 0:35
Without air loop (so more of a naked overhead) at 0:45
With air loop at 0:52

III. Air to ground (pushblocked). All pushblocks cause 21 frames of immobility. You can take this time to your advantage. With you pushing the other side into the corner your options off a push are this.

A. Immediate teleport with C (this puts you into the corner). Your height will not always be equal with them depending on when they pushed. However your core options are almost always open to you.

  1. Air throw. Ideally you should try to direct your air throw to drop them back into the corner. From here go back to IA.
    Variant: No teleport, dash in.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob-rgse_xQ0

  2. While still in the air A land C, B land S, C land S. Which of these button options you use is dependent on the height. As long as you chose correctly you can follow up with an air combo (or stand B, stand C, ghost butterfly). On block with no push, air A land C sets you up for a secondary teleport mixup which is why I default to this if I’m reasonably sure the other side will block. If the air attack is pushed depending on height (again) you can go back to IIIA or forward to IIIB/IIIC or dash forward looking for mixups in II although the timing will not be nearly as good for you. A lot of this you have to play by ear. Generally if you’re close enough to dash in and still be threatening with a command grab you should omit any ground strike and go for a low/throw mixup after the secondary teleport mixup. If you aren’t, go back to teleport tricks.

B. Late teleport with C (this also puts you into the corner). The purpose of a late teleport is to bring the high/low mixup back into play. Once you get good at counting time off a pushblock, setting this up to ?perfect? height (where they will not be able to jump away in time) becomes easier.

C. Step/dash back, late teleport with C. Brings in the high/low mixup of B with a left/right mixup. If you?re using S or AA as your post teleport options the difference will be very difficult for people to see visually. You can introduce a projectile assist (I use Iron Man unibeam) for more chaos and to move the timing of the left/right mixup forward.

IV. Ground roll state. It is difficult for Wesker to create this state on his own, but many assists can do it. My primary Wesker team right now is Wesker/Iron Man/Phoenix. Phoenix?s ball AND Iron Man’s unibeam can both create ground roll state. Probably many others can too. Regardless of what assist you use to create this state, the timing is almost always the same, there aren?t the same air height variables as found in I-III. Most characters who have a ground roll state reset have to drastically adjust what they do based on whether the other side rolls forward or backwards. Some even have to guess For Wesker the option is more or less the same. After creating ground roll state, you first dash backwards, then evaluate. If they?re coming at you, go to what you do from forward roll. If they?re rolling back to the corner, wavedash towards them and no time is lost.

A. Forward roll (out of the corner, towards you).

  1. Left/right mixup with crouch B or meaty with crouch A. As they are rolling towards you, you should back up into them causing them difficulty in seeing which side they are going to emerge on. Since you are doing this mixup from the corner primarily, the distance is predetermined. You simply choose to be 1 step left or 1 step right of their wakeup spot.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkntk3Om2Mw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4rjpT_8Lbs

  2. Kara Mustang Kick from crouch B. You are kara-ing the mustang kick not for range (although the range helps since some characters elbow you out of the way as they’re standing up) but to kill off time. At the time of writing this it is undetermined how many frames the character is unthrowable as they emerge from ground roll, however it is theorized to be in the neighborhood of 5. You are kara-ing from crouch B to kill off these frames while an attack looks like it?s coming out. If you time it correctly the opponent will see the purple from Wesker’s hands and be even more convinced not to hold up-back.
    Variant on the mustang kick setup sent in by NissanZaxima. This one involves kara off the stand C. He gave a good explanation so I’ll have him explain:
    This one has been working for me lately as well. Basically it is one for the ground roll state except you aren’t reacting to their tech you are basically guessing that they are going to roll out of the corner… so it is a much riskier approach. I tend to start using this on players that I notice always like to forward tech out of the corner (just to get the fuck out because the corner + Wesker is a scary place). If you use the standing C right away they will roll through you to the other side but if you delay it slightly then they will stop right in front of you where you can time it perfectly to grab them right as they are out of the recovery (The standing C doesn’t hit! Yay). I like using the Mustang Kick A because you can gunshot teleport behind them and throw their ass right back in the corner.

Video:
[media=youtube]A7g0L6rS0n4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/media]
[media=youtube]E2Ga-UX8TCw&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/media]

B. Backward roll (back towards the corner).

  1. Crouch A/crouch B
  2. Kara Mustang Kick from crouch B + assist call.
  3. Instant overhead + assist call.
    This introduces an element of risk since your assist will be vulnerable. In this case the kara is necessary to get distance back also since some characters will push you too far away for normal mustang kick to grab (SENTINEL SENTINEL SENTINEL DO NOT DO THIS ON SENTINEL EVEN WITH THE KARA), but it is primarily done for timing purposes as above. The addition of the instant overhead introduces a high/low element to the mixup which makes up for putting yourself at risk. If you mix primarily off of the high/low the mixup can be instant.

I’m sure there are other options off of both of these situations or off of other common situations, but this is a good place to get started. Feel free to post your own. Hope this was helpful.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com


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#2

note this is adapted from an IM conversation I had a few hours ago. I normally write in sentences. Jay’s writeup is certainly more eloquent that mine, but I will add what works for my team, as well as a few extra tidbits.

I play Wesker/Tron/Phoenix (TKoverdrive)

My Wesker is so dumb. I pretty much drop Tron a lot, shoot, footsie with c.H, S, teleport, and jump S to crossup for hits.

** when I hit the combo**
air magic series
OTG with shot + assist two (i use phoenix overdrive)
relaunch
magic series
land
They are always in the corner here (this series does about 50k less than cobra combos, but always corners and works in the corner due to no wall bounce)

then OTG shot… wait
this causes air tech

noobs will always back tech
Option A air throw
smart noobs will then back tech then try to throw tech
Option Bstand on ground and launch their jump C air tech POP!

then, they’ll realize they can tech forward. (If you jump straight up here, you get both)

Option C w/ Tron jump straight up, call tron right before you air throw
if they throw tech they will fall straight into tron so that if they were spazzing throw tech, this gets them hit and launched again.
If you get the throw, a lot of the time, they’ll miss tron and you can combo OTG shot, cr.M, C.H.launch. If they hit tron, sometimes you can combo, sometimes it’s a 1 hit glance and no combo.

teleport mix-ups can work too
I’ll mix it up between manual teleports after the gun or cancelling the gun
However, if you teleport behind them and they teched forward, they get out.

You can time a teleport so that their forward tech goes into you as opposed to away. This is acommplished if you do a combo into teleport in the air for example, by the time they tech… forwards and backwards are reversed

It’s tricky and i haven’t messed with it a whole lot, but it’s essentially crossing up their tech

**Post air throw attempt and tech **
just H teleport then hit S
for the cross-up/not cross-up (learn that range)

** but the real key is when you drop tron**
A)can drop her to cover the air throw mix up
B) or drop her to cover the teleport one
as in call tron L teleport= free side switch crossup even in corner. or call tron H teleport for ambiguous cross-up/low B/Mustang Kick

Something neat I try when i’m feeling frisky is to drop tron, jump up, teleport down quickly, and go low. It kinda helps if you Tron and Wesker match colors.

and if they get used to this game and start holding forward all the time, you can not OTG gun them and cause a
GROUND TECH (bonus: calling tron after 1 OTG causes ground tech, after 2 causes air tech)

A)Call Tron and just jump back S
If they backward roll, they’re blocking tron… so teleport to the corner on random side when you realize they back rolled. (you’re varied reactions provide a mixup here. ground/air teleport, front or back?)

If they forward rolled, they’ll roll out of the corner right into your crossup S. You can easily empty jump or whiff into Low or go for a mustang kick if you know which side you’ll land on.

That’s pretty much 90% of my wesker game. I like to keep it simple combo wise and just focus on putting people in bad situations over and over again.

You can probably get cute and mess with his command throws and counters w/ tron cover.

Wesker/Tron also can DHC glitch between each other via mustang kick/King Servbot, and capture gun, king servbot/Wesker counter.


#3

Im having trouble landing this consistently… even just 2 loops of it especially in the corner. Is there any execution tips you could throw in here? I land the first M,H,S but can never land the 2nd consistently at all (the 3rd I haven’t even tried yet)

Great post by the way… kind of refreshing with everything on this character forum all being “dude found this hella good combo” all the time.


#4

The timing is exactly the same as Spencer’s air loop listed in the combo appendix of the guide (last one listed), which is where the idea came from. As I said, pieces of my mixups are derivative.

If you don’t play Spencer or don’t do that combo, the best advice I can give you is that you have considerably more time between C and S on reps 1 and 2 than you think. If you’re hitting AC or BC early in the jump, you don’t have to hit S until right before your feet hit the floor. This is what makes the mixup on block so deadly because the timing for a great throw tick and the timing on the combo loop are exactly the same.

Also, like all combo loops start on Sentinel just to get the feel down, it’s much easier on him but can be adapted to most others.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com


#5

Jay,

do you feel the ground tech mixup is stronger because you can theoretically attack in 5 options (high/low either side, throw), whereas in the air it’s basically air throw or not to air throw i.e. hit?

I tend to rely on air techs now b/c that I think the ground techs almost cover too much ground, and the air tech can be more easily controlled and kept in the corner.

Also, the defender has access to more defensive options after a ground tech (limited throw immunity, assists affecting your area, cross counters, xfactors, more invulnerable specials and hypers grounded, even team supers.)

I’m going to practice that wesker loop. Do they air tech after M,H,S if the S is really low to the ground?


#6

I like the ground tech one much better for damage. Combos starting from air loop will do more than from the ground, but combos starting from air throw take damage scaling pretty hard.

I also like it because it’s much harder to react to. I feel like from air tech the other side has a chance to react and consider their options, from the ground roll especially the one going into the corner it’s pure guesswork on the other side since instant overhead is too fast to react to. Similar situation on the roll out of the corner on the left/right. It’s exactly the same as Magneto’s roll mixup from MvC2, nobody actually reacts to it, you’re just guessing/playing tendencies. Adding in command grab just makes it much better and raises your success chances. I think if you were to assign percentages of mixup success x damage gained and put it into a spreadsheet, ground roll would be the clear winner. Also as a bonus, if you happen to use Viper overhead assist, setting up an unblockable vs. the backwards ground roll is pretty simple. It’s not guaranteed but it’s really really hard to get out of. Of course this requires having Viper on your team and I don’t think anyone is actually doing that. Forgot to add that up top simply because I haven’t played Viper in forever.

But, like I said, air tech is much more important since it comes up more often so they both have their advantages. Just more tools in the tool box.

And yes, they do air tech even if the S is low. I learned this trying to add a 4th rep to the loop which I’m pretty sure is possible but is just combo video stuff and too risky for real play (although it sets them right back in air tech state with you in the air with them which can be fun).

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com


#7

People need to read this thread more and stop being so goo-goo ga-ga over combos 24/7


#8

Finally getting a hang of that loop. I feel much better just going for it twice and then the launch… I don’t feel like im consistent enough for 3. Also in the corner I like to neutral jump the 2nd loop it seems to connect easier or maybe it is just me.

Either way this shit was great. I was thinking the other day of what else I could do after the Samurai Edge if some just tries to mash out of a throw and then read this last night and was really excited. 400-500K damage for the wrong guess :). Wesker keeps getting deadlier by the minute.

I wish the damage in this game would be a little lower overall so mix ups and resets played a much bigger role in the game. Wesker would be even better if this was the case because of all the shenanigans he can do. He is way too fun.

Edit: Never mind about the neutral jump in the corner thingy. I realized I was just timing it wrong for some reason when I jumped forward. Im getting the 3x loop a lot easier now (literally right after I posted this originally I hit it like 3 times in a row lol)


#9

renegade, we look so much alike it scares my girlfriend. i’m your clone who sucks with wesker (but he’s necessary otg assist for cap so I’m here)


#10

2nd’ed. This is the heart of wesker right here. They are still talking about Maximum Wesker finishers and Xfactor 100%'s over there.
Bonus is that Jay is one of the best at breaking down game strategy in text form. He’d make killer guides if there weren’t better things to do.

It’s not actually me, I gave you some renegade sports drink while you were sleepwalking and snapped that picture.


#11

Yup and the funny thing a lot of them don’t realize is that they are all posting the same combo with just slight variations and using maybe a couple different assists that practically have the same properties. I got my BnB with Wesker and im sticking to that and focusing on his Mix ups much more than knowing 8 different variations of the same combo. People for some reason think the more combos you know the better you are… but whatever.

Anyways one of the mix ups that I use a lot that I don’t see Wesker players using that much is after a mid screen samurai edge dash twice so you end up going under them to the other side… a ground cross up. It is in the Bible and not groundbreaking at all but it is very effective and more people should use it.

Oh yea and LOL at ending combos in maximum wesker unless you are trying to DHC him out of there or trying to finish the character off (even then this is mostly stupid). Such a waste of meter… just spike them down for a Samurai Edge and you have another chance at 400-600K damage instead of a mesely 80K or whatever Maximum Wesker scales down to after a combo. Wesker is on my team to charge my Dormammmu so I rarely use any meter with him.


#12

In terms of the air tech trap to catch them in the air loop, i like to option select jump :f::h::df::h:. This way, you can get the throw, but also if it hits, you can easily hit confirm into the rest of the air loop. The air loop i like to do is:

j.:h::df::h:, j.:m::h::s:, :h:(1 hit) xx :qcf::m: (Dash) c.:m::h::s:, j.:m::m::h::s:

This is great in the corner because if it gets blocked, then you both land at the same time and you can do a command throw right when you land (provided they dont push block you). Can be quite confusing for the opponent. You can also use it midscreen to catch neutral and back techs if you dash before you jump (can catch some front techs midscreen, but it’s iffy. Better doing something else if you expect a front tech.

If they do push block you, then they will be immobilised in the air for a bit. Just dash, teleport, whatever you want to keep pressure really.


#13

I’m trying to get my mind around this but I’m more of a visual person, is it possible someone could do a short video clip of this loop or a few resets? I mean i’m sure as I get my mind around this I can get all of the options Jay and renegade listed in HD, but i’m just a little confused lol.

Oh and Jay, do you play Blanka in SSF4? CUz i could’ve sworn i challenged you in ranked like 5 games in a row and got raped. I’m not sure but i remember the name being viscant


#14

Every time a Wesker ends a combo with Phantom Dance, Jesus cries.


#15

Oh wow so i’ve been using the advice in the first two posts of this thread to follow up samurai edge OTGs in the corner, and damn. Wow this is such a powerful mixup I do not see why I didn’t use this stuff earlier.

I just wanted to ask what you guys use as your first option when u first try the reset?
Like do you neutral jump in hopes of catching them with an air throw or do you use the air loop/standing S?

also, does jump :l: :h: :s: always beat out your opponent’s jump attack? like if my opponent decides to jump back and press j :l:, what determines if my attack will beat that? or it just meant to catch opponents if u expect them to press :h: and tech?


#16

I usually always go for the jump forward air throw until the person im playing gives me another reason to go for something else.


#17

Generally against people who don’t know any better you can assume that they’ll be holding back, especially online. Like Renegade said in his post, inexperienced players always always always hold back. It’s a hard habit to break from old games. So I tend to jump forward air throw until they show that they’re going to at least put up a fight against this, whether through mashing or teching. Once people have some experience built up, I’ll tend to go for the air loop more than the air throw since even if they guess right and block I can keep the mixups going.

Wesker’s jump light usually beats other characters jump light because it acts a bit like a frame trap. Wesker’s jump L is only 5 frames and from most setups you can get into the air and be hitting the button before they can. Plus, since you’ve conditioned them to think that a throw might come, they’ll probably be mashing H for throw tech and that gives you plenty of frames to get there even if you’re off. It’s another reason why starting the loop ACS instead of straight BCS BCS BCS will make your life easier; sometimes even if they guess what you’re doing and mash L you’ll frame trap them.

And yeah, to answer your other post, I was a Blanka player in SF4 and SSF4.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com


#18

I’m having a lot of trouble getting this loop to connect more than just A,C,S, B,
Then again i’m tryign it in training mode and maybe I haven’t set the dummy to reset correctly. Anyone have a video showing the proper timing of this?


#19

For the people having trouble visualising this or the air loop, me and my friend put something together real quick.

[media=youtube]j22UapQ9v10[/media]

Half way through you can see the combo i do. It isn’t exactly the loop, but it’s the same premise. You just have to time the jump S as late as possible as you are falling, then you can easily rejump for the loop.


#20

Preach. Unless it’s to kill off a character or to safely DHC switch I rarely see how well it can be applied to his game. His damage on ambiguous resets makes him infinitely more intimidating. IMO, the brief second after you have being OTG’d by Samurai edge is the the scariest position you can be in while on defense.