What made brawl bad?



I think all the hate for Smash is because of how “loose” the inputs and frame data are. When I used to juggle my cousins for fun it felt like I could literally do it forever.


Forget about metaknight and balance.
It’s floaty and slow as fuck, and tripping is stupid. I always feel like there is a 0.25 seconds of input delay (maybe it’s just me). Every character feels so unresponsive that I just want to put my controller down, and go outside. Sakurai went out of his way to limit movement, and the game became incredibly stiff.
Also, I could never find the sweet spot for the item drop rates. It would either be too much or not enough for me. In melee, I felt that setting it to “very high” was too much, so “high” was just right.

Then they don’t know how to air tech.


how the fuck were you able to deal with the n64 original then?


I never owned a n64, so I didn’t get to play it as much as melee and brawl. The original smash was floaty, but not slow. Movement was not heavily restricted like brawl’s.

looks @ avatar
American Psycho was such a good movie! Do you think he really murdered all those people or was it all in his head?


The original smash wasnt what you’d call melee speed either, and movement restricted in brawl? Wat i fail to see how its restricted at all


lol, that’s the thing, movement isn’t restricted in brawl. soul calibur is a slow game, brawl definitely isn’t slow.


ya it is an awesome movie…so funny. I think in the book he actually does murder everyone, but i forget. I should read that again sometime…


64 has a much faster pace do to the fact that there was gasp combos. Its not like the person gets hit then everything starts over like brawl is most of the time.



Except in brawl THERE IS COMBOS
You guys seriously need to stop your bitching and either

  1. Deal with the changes and learn to adapt
  2. Go back to melee And stop your complaining
    I mean seriously you dont see Marvel 2 players throwing a bitchfit over the changes in marvel 3. They instead either adapt and deal with the changes, or just play marvel 2 and not whine about it


What the hell is tripping for? To restrict movement. However, the most important things removed were dash dancing and l-canceling (z-canceling in 64). You can’t make your character quickly face a different direction during a regular dash without dash dancing. Without l-canceling you had to deal with tons of recovery frames on almost every single aerial move low close to the ground.

Your telling me that a game with almost no offense (brawl) is faster than Soul Calibur?

LMAO nice 1-hit combos. :rofl:


I think Brawl exceeds at being a fun game (at least for me), but people call it bad due to it being almost completely stripped of competitive viability. A lot of people have already nailed some of the issues (lack of l-cancelling or wave-dashing aren’t issues in my opinion, though). Personally, if Brawl had a reasonable amount of hitstun and no tripping, I would be able to deal with most of its other issues from a competitive standpoint. But being punished for *running, *which is needed to get close to the opponent, and getting punished for actually hitting your opponent due to lack of hitstun…that’s just stupid on so many levels.

I’d give a list of what I’d like to see in the next smash, but there’s probably another thread for that.

Also, technically Brawl does have combos. Mario and Luigi’s down throw into up-air is a true combo, Toon Link’s Back-air into up special is a true combo (I think…I do know that his back-airs combo into themselves as a true combo), Marth’s forward throw into forward smash is a true combo (I think it’s forward throw…it’s either that or down throw), you can combo with almost anything after Toon Link’s hookshot, Link’s clawshot (one hit) can allow for a combo afterwards…there are a few others I’m forgetting.

So Brawl does have combos. But the way the game works makes most “true combos” not worth going for, and doesn’t allow for the creative combos we see in Melee and 64.

Ironically enough, Falco’s chain grab is not a true combo. But you can’t escape from it until you get to a high enough percent or if you’re a really, really floaty character (I think game & watch is one that you can’t really chain grab with Falco).


Marvel 2 players bitched constantly about the Marvel 3 changes. They’re still bitching, last I checked, about changes made from vanilla to ultimate. The only difference between them and the Melee crowd is they continued to play a game they hate because that’s what Evo went with while the Melee crowd kept playing the game they loved despite the fact that massive tournaments were being held for the game they hated, and they eventually revived the Melee scene to become one of the most vibrant underground tournament scenes in the world. I’m not sure which side is smarter, since the Marvel players are bitching all the way to the bank, but I’d say the Melee crowd did a better job of following your advice.

And lol at your “combo” video. Showing people air control into smash attacks is not a combo video, it’s a “let’s make our opponents look like fools” compilation. The majority of the video certainly showcases some great reads, but it’s telling that most of those reads are punishing the opponent for being too aggressive. The only actual combos are brain dead infinites and chain grabs that have literally no tech skill floor to execute. Melee combos may be considered easy, but true brawl combos don’t even require DI reads to work, because the mechanics that make them possible explicitly prevent DI from occurring.


Snake isn’t in Melee. Everyone’s arguments are suddenly invalid.

Seriously, I’ve never had any problem with Brawl. I love destroying people with snake.


[]Low hit-stun
]Air-dodges not causing helpless
]Easy recoveries
[]Not being able to instantly detach from a grabbed ledge
]Too floaty
[*]Too much stale-move negation

Melee had Chain Grabs too FYI.


Ok let me rephrase my example as I barely see any bitching about marvel 3 from marvel2 players but whatever
You dont see tekken players bitching about the changes in recemt tekken games, you dont see soulcalibur IV players bitching about Soulcalibur V(at least in terms of gameplay) you dont see KOF players bitching about The changes in KOFXIII
what do they all do? They all deal with the changes, they learn to use these changes, etc.
Now you people seriously need to get grip to changes, if you dont like them, then dont play brawl, go back to melee, amd stop whining your asses off, it can REALLY get annoying at times…


While I agree with the complaining part, I do think that the players need to tell the developers how they felt about the changes. Not mindlessly complain about it for no reason, but actually offer up solutions to the things that they find stupid in the game. (And don’t say make Melee 2.0.)

Like for example, we want more hitstun. Well, how much more? Enough to allow elaborate combos like in Melee, or just enough so we don’t have people getting punished for hitting their opponent? (I say Melee hitstun. I feel that combos help balance certain characters; powerhouse characters won’t have many combos, but they hit hard. Faster characters have combos so they can rack up the damage and can then try for the kill. N64 hitstun is a bit too much; there were too many TOD combos in N64.)

We want more shield-stun. How much more? Or perhaps simply make it so grabbing out of shield isn’t so godly? Or maybe make it harder to perfect shield? A combination of the three? (I say a combination of the three…though the strength of grabbing out of shield is probably automatically nerfed by increasing shield-stun and making it harder to perfect shield).

We don’t want chain grabs. How do we go about this? Do we make it so the opponent can’t be grabbed while in hitstun? Make it so grabs can’t connect on airborne opponents? (This one’s a tough one…might just be a simple act of character balancing. E.g. on Dedede’s down throw, reduce the amount of hitstun it causes so you can actually get away from it.)

We want the game to be less floaty. Do we simply want the characters to fall faster? Give characters more varying fall speeds? Maybe just make the game less aireal based like Sakurai wanted Brawl to be? (Increasing fall-speed and the max speed that characters fall is probably the best way to go here).

Thinking about exactly what kind of changes, and telling Sakurai about it (rather than just saying “give us Melee 2.0!”) is the way to get changes made, rather than mindlessly complaining. At least that’s how I view it.


SCIV players would not complain about changes in V because V is a better game. Same for the move from KOFXII to XIII. This is a completely different story.

And you’re still totally missing the point. The point is, Melee players are not complaining. If asked why they don’t play Brawl, sure they’ll put in their two cents. That’s what this whole thread is about. Outside of that, they’re content to go on playing Melee, just like you’re saying they should. And not only that, but they do it better than any other community that is playing an old game, with more and larger tournaments than MvC2, or 3S, or GG. So stop whining about whining that isn’t even happening. That’s what I’m trying to get across to you.


project m, ya’ll. project m


brawl’s not bad, it’s just completely different from melee. at the highest level, brawl is played brilliantly by top players. it’s less fun to watch than Melee, but it’s still a very deep game.


to me the attacks are unbalanced or are just particle affects the animations silent and look horrible and if you say that its supposed to build tension it looks like shit and Nintendo is a multi million dollar company the story is dumb its really easy even on extreme difficulty unless you are doing that Yoshi an link vs. Mario and Icarus is fucking impossible and I just had to have a bottle of painkillers in one had and a controller in another I will admit the controls ore nice if you want to win though step 1 press x step 2 hold down x step 3 win plus if you are going to defend Nintendo it makes more money than you do plus it doesn’t need defending its a company