What saves (insert character) from being bottom 8


#1

Yuri:

Yuri seems to get a lot of hate around here. I don’t really know why, she has a ton of stuff to work with if you’ve got the imagination (or just bite it off of somebody else).

Pros:

-Excellent ground game:
-standing roundhouse is Sakura-esque. A little less priority, but still a great move to have. Effectively gives Yuri a long ranged power move/whiff punisher. Actually recovers faster than Sakura’s roundhouse and gives Yuri a hefty +6 on block. One of the few abusable pokes in the game that isn’t punishable by rolls or jumps.
-Very good sweep. Long range, fast (not 3 frames like the book says. That’s an error. It’s 6 frames), bufferable! Another ideal whiff punisher.
-Standing short is yet another fast, long ranged poke. Bufferable into super and safe to just throw out in general. Gives her the coveted “whiff punisher into super” that most characters lack. Also gives her the ability to get a max range counter hit low short, chain standing short and super similar to Iori and Kim.
-Fast ground fireball. Really big hit box AND knocks down! All of them are very buff ground tools, especially with RC. Guarantees a CC when hit in the corner.
-The air fireball, while not nearly as abusable as in CvS1 is still a very useful zoning tool. It gives non-roll grooves fits and is also a good set up tool. Becomes particularly beastly in the corner as the opponent no longer gets pushed back by it, and if they get knocked out of the air by it Yuri gets a free CC.
-Yuri’s jab uppercut has lower body invul, and guarantees a CC if hit even midscreen. Strong DP has upper body invul and is perfect anti-air, while fierce DP has the most range and does slightly more damage in combos.
-Yuri’s reflector is a buff ass move. Aside from its obvious use in reflecting projectiles (ahem… Guile), it gives +2 on block. RC reflector on wake up is similar to Blanka’s RC elec: throwable, but if blocked is safe and gives Yuri the initiative. RCed reflector on a rising opponent is basically free, and sets up a ton of mix ups afterwards, and crazy ass mix up in the corner. More on this a minute.
-Her supers are useful multi purpose moves, but they’re basically less damaging variants of Ryo’s.
-Good cross up with short. Hard to block after certain set ups.
-Her butt overhead is the fastest overhead in the game at 9 frames. Of course, if you do it that close it’s very unsafe, but if distanced well enough or timed meaty enough it gives a potential +3 on hit and +9 on block. You can use it to move forward like a pseudo hop kick, and it also sets up RCs and CCs well.
-Good dash, also able to corpse hop. Sets up RC reflector well.
-Easy links allow for practical b&b combos with good damage.
-Tied for best alpha counter in the game. A ridiculous +10 (?!) if blocked. Basically guarantees reflector mix ups after.
-Monstrous corner patterns.

Cons:

-Yuri’s main flaw is her lack of damage dealing in general. Her potential damage caps at about 7400, and while her b&b’s do good damage, she can’t do a lot of damage outside of point blank range without super/CC.
-Certain RC moves and fast rolls make her air fireballs mostly useless except as meaty moves.
-Rolls in general give her trouble unless she sticks with just normal moves.
-Short characters can crouch her reflector, fairly heavily neutering her close game and wake up mix ups.

The crazy corner mix up:

Knock down an opponent in the corner, get over their body and do an RC reflector. Since the reflector is essentially a projectile, Yuri doesn’t get pushed back at all and is at a +2 advantage. From here she can:

a) throw, then start over, or
b) low short into another reflector

If the opponent does anything short of a DP or super to escape the throw, the +2 advantage insures that the low short counter hits, causing the reflector to combo. In A-Groove you get a free CC here, other grooves just dash up and start the process over. If the 2nd reflector is blocked, you can:

a) throw, then start over
b) RC reflector
c) low jab, low roundhouse
d) low fierce, strong fireball

RC reflector moves Yuri slightly closer to the opponent while beating any moves he might try to stick out. If two RC reflectors are done, Yuri is back at point blank range. The opponent can counter this by throwing or rolling. Low jab counters either of these. If the low jab hits, it will most likely be a counter hit allowing the low roundhouse to link easily (1 frame link otherwise). If this happens, buffer to short air fireball to hit super meaty and start over. If blocked, you can still short air fireball if you want to be agressive. If your opponent blocks it (most likely against P/K groove), you get a free dash in RC reflector and can start over. Low fierce, strong fireball is yet another alternative. If that counter hits, the strong fireball will combo and you get a free CC or can start over. If blocked, Yuri is pushed right to the edge of her jab fireball range. Jab fireballs are very abusable here, check for yourself.

Not only are you creating huge pressure with the quick mix ups, but each reflector is also doing chip and a very large chunk of guard bar.

Best Grooves:

A-Groove: Tons of guaranteed CC situations, also CCs are much more damaging than her supers.
C-Groove: Good level 2 cancels, stored super helps. Supers also patch up some of her problem areas, such as countering people who jump up and down. Alpha counter abuse available.
N-Groove: Her midrange game is tighter with run, and the ability to run also gives her more options in her corner mix up. A few good cross up sets up too. Other than that N-Groove gets the nod just because it’s the only remaining roll groove and she needs RC.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to add where I think Yuri’s ranked. In my highly scientific fashion, I rank A-Yuri higher than N-Ryu and lower than A-Todo. Pretty much near the middle of the cast.


#2

I have never heard much hate for yuri…

she can be hella good and I beleive most people know this

however everyone also knows shes one of those chars that take alot of work to excel with hence not alot of yuri players that bring out her tru potential :bluu:

I have a question for buk though

how does chang stop from being bottom 8?

I used to have alot of problems with him when the game first came out but if you keep him out (not that hard to do with anyone with a fireball or a good AA RC) his options are just totally shut down. chang feels so out dated in todays game and its really hard for him to win when he relys on priority and lockdown to get consistant wins


#3

I dunno, I dont think that chang’s problem is that he can’t get in, chang is a keep away character not a rush one. He really doesnt have the tools to just rush someone but he has very long range and a decent ground game, and a very handy projectile. To me he loses to people rushing him, not to being kept out. I hope someone stays away and plays keepaway if I have chang as that is playing right into my hands, it’s when they jump at me and climb all over my huge character that I have problems as he has no move that says “get off me” in any way really. Although with RC’s maybe, I havent played him in a long time. I wonder if RC ball spin thing is any good.


#4

Out of curiousity: What saves Yun from the bottom 8?


#5

Yun has easy B&Bs that knock down. Easy knockdown off a c.short is a good thing to have. Jab rush punch combos off quite a few things…

His RCs are pretty good. RC command grab and palmstrike in particular. While Ken made good use of RC jab rush punch at Evo2k2, that was mostly 'cuz people kept sticking to their pressure strings and eating it.

Easy combos to super with his chain or off a command grab. Also has some guaranteed CC setups, most notably his command grab, though shoulder and close s.forward work too.

Shoulder goes under fireballs and some pokes. Not abusable, but it does help in some matchups. Goes under Sonic Booms AND Guile’s s.RH, and I think under his bk+forward as well. Free damage in that situation.

Dive kicks aren’t as crazy as 3S but still good. Good distancing should go without saying. Think a sorta neutered 3S dive kick game? No crossups and crazy stuff like that, but it still lets Yun get in after knockdowns and whiff dive kicks still set up throws…

twd+forward overhead is pretty good. Not too damaging and probably gets thrown if done too close, but it sets up the command grab pretty well.


#6

Yun is nowhere near the bottom tier, he’s not even in the bottom half of the characters, I would put him in the high middle tier. There are tons of options with that character, if he did a little more damage hed be at the top.


#7

yun high tier? definately not.

im just wondering whats saving sim from bottom 8…

im outi

Roberth


#8

yun is in the bottom half of the mid tier. definitely not high mid. He has a lot of moves the knockdown to setup mind games. his qcf+p is a really good whif punisher, and is really good RC’d. If he did a little more damage and took less he’d definitely be up there.


#9

Chang’s got too much priority and damage potential to suck. His parry/JD into super’s a bitch, his main ground custom is insanely damaging, Choi helps him to get in, knock them in the air for corner CCs, and beat out a lot of ground moves when RCed (though unabusable). And once Chang DOES corner you, you’re in for major guard damage no matter what groove you’re in. He suffers mostly from laggy moves, but once you get used to throwing out the most proper ones and timing them, he can keep out most of the top-tier on the ground or in the air just nicely. And yes, the RCed spinning ball is damned fantastic.


#10

thanks for the insight on yuri :slight_smile:


#11

Yun seems to be the flavor of the day.

Yun:

Pros:

-He’s a momentum/mix up-based character. He knocks you down once and you’re going for a ride. Even better yet, he’s a momentum-based character that doesn’t require you to play N/K grooves.
-RCable command grab that leads to a free combo/super/CC if successful. VERY powerful tool, only available to one other character in the game (Todo).
-He is the only momentum-based character that has the ability to grab the opponent on wake up and ADD to their stun bar. Other characters either reset their opponents stun bar when they grab them, or they have to add a tick to the grab first. Yun’s ability to RC grab an opponent on wake up and keep adding on a significant amount of stun is really powerful, and makes him probably the most likely character in the game to stun an opponent (yes, even moreso than Kyo).
-His normal punch throw, while it doesn’t add any stun damage to the opponent, also keeps it from resetting. Also allows some situation specific mix ups.
-Easy knock down combos from pretty much any connected hit, all of which leave Yun right next to the opponent for another mix up.
-Good overall ground game. Fast walking speed, good ranged moves and solid anti air.
-Standing fierce has surprising range and priority.
-Jab rush punch beats most everything even without RC. Safe from the right distance. Also an easy whiff punisher that knocks down and gives Yun the necessary momentum. Well ranged jab rush punches are good enough to force rolls out of the opponent.
-Low fierce is good enough anti-air for most situations. Barring that, RC rush punch or RC upkick fit the bill nicely.
-Very fast walking speed. Always a big plus.
-Good dash. Fast, goes far, corpse hops very easily. Adds to his mix up game a lot.
-F+forward is a fast overhead. Also sets up the RC grab well.
-Yun doesn’t require meter to be dangerous. Big plus. He also builds meter quickly just doing what he does.
-Only character in the game (iirc) that has a jumping air chain that can be done at any time. Very handy for air to air, particularly against P/K grooves. Good for juggles also, and will most always leave Yun in the perfect position for another mix up upon landing.
-Dive kicks aren’t abuseable like they are in 3s, but still a very handy tool to have. Air mobility is never a bad thing, and it’s another tool Yun has to get into mix up range.
-RC palms are a pretty good move to wake up with. Incredibly easy to throw though.
-RC fake palms can be used as a really bootleg dodge. There’s still recovery on it though, so it’s sort of like a Hibiki dodge more than anything else.
-Level 2 punch super is easily comboable, and the follow up cancel adds 29 stun, gives Yun a whole mess of meter, and leaves Yun in position for an immediate mix up if the opponent was near the corner.
-The lvl3 only You Hou super also combos easily and has all the benefits of the level 2 cancel (29 stun, meter yadayada). Also gives Yun surprisingly high damage potential. Jump fierce, low fierce into You Hou with all the follow ups does 8758 in C-Groove (more in others), and does 51 stun. You Hou also doubles as a good anti-air super.
-Even his CC has all the benefits of the level 2 cancel. Getting an opponent dizzy during a CC is pretty disgusting.
-Versatile CCs with a large number of guaranteed set ups. RC grab into CC alone is a very powerful tool, even without the additional 29 stun damage.
-The level 3 only dive kick super is a very nice tool to have, as it discourages opponents from anti-airing you when you have a level 3 ready. Also juggles easily from certain moves.

Cons:
-Without meter, his mix ups do very little damage compared to other momentum characters. 1700 to 2100 isn’t too much to worry about until the stun starts building up.
-Yun is tied for the second to lowest life amount in the game. While it’s only 1200 less than the average character (about a fierce worth of damage), it’s still a significant amount considering Yun is a momentum character and takes a lot of risks.
-Yun’s grab is punishible if jumped out of. Combined with his low damage output and low life, a lot of times the grab isn’t worth the risk.
-A little too reliant on the jab rush punch in midrange games. While it’s definitely a good move, it’s also very risky and can be punished very hard if baited.
-While his air to air abilities are good, his jump ins are pretty weak. Dive kicks are ok, but you generally can’t combo off of them. The rest of his normal jumping moves either have very little range or have crap for priority. Jumping short is somewhat decent, but it’s still pretty underwhelming.
-Aside from his dive kick super, he doesn’t really have any “utility” supers. They’re all pretty much only used in combos. Not to mention the utter uselessness that is the Yang super.
-Outside of his standing fierce and low fierce, the rest of his normal move set is pretty weak. Walking jabs are ok for pressure since nobody can duck under them, but that’s about it. This makes Yun even more reliant on his rush punch.

Best Grooves:

C-Groove: Frequent access to level 2’s, which give Yun crazy stun potential and the ability to do good damage. Yun with dash is also much better than running Yun. Stored level 3’s let Yun keep the threat of a random dive kick super, not to mention You Hou as anti-air.
A-Groove: Customs might not be terribly damaging, but they still add a big chunk of stun. Versatile CCs that can get landed often.
N-Groove: Last remaining RC Groove. Yun doesn’t benefit much from run or low jump, really.

Ranking:

Roughly in the middle, but slightly higher. Better than Nakoruru, worse than Akuma.


#12

Isnt that what I said?


#13

I use Sim a lot… what I see saving him from the bottom 8…

-db fierce does good damage, quick to come out, and recover
-Sim can punish blocked Blanka balls with all kinds of shit, like far standing roundhouse or fierce, or either tempest or stream super
-really easy CC… a few db fierces and slides into the corner, sweep into kick super
-good dash
-teleport is helpful for getting some breathing room from rushdown
-slides are really good
-really damaging c-groove super cancels
-drills are useful as ghetto triangle jumps and also useful for throw mixups… drill at the ground right at the foot of your opponent and noogie once you land
-flame is like Raiden’s, recover real quick when blocked

He pretty much dies to rushdown and pretty much all of the top tier though. His anti air isn’t too solid and he doesn’t have anything to get a rushdown character to stop rushing down besides his teleport, which is only a temporary solution. RC flames work to get some breathing room, but can’t stop rushdown for long. His poke strings are really limited. Horrible walking speed, his run isn’t too hot either (although it looks really cool). Besides his drills, he doesn’t have any good jump ins. His jump is floaty and doesn’t cover much ground without the drills.

I know I’m forgetting a lot, but even with all his weaknesses, Dhalsim isn’t that bad.


#14

I was wondering about Sim to, I didnt really see anything redeaming about him, Dont worry Ducky im reading your post about it right now so dont think I just blew it off.

I dont see Yun being better then Nak imo.


#15

Yes, it is exactly what you said. Are happy now?


#16

Yes quite.


#17

Do rugal next! rugal next!


#18

Yuri has an extremely good close s.LK.

+6/+6
2/5/4

Look at that frame data. It’s cheap like Geese’s close s.LK. Start using this more often and your opponents will get so confused they don’t know what’s going on. Yuri getting on a momentum streak is pretty funny.

-fake a throw, counter hit close s.LK, whatever

-close s.LK, walk up counter hit d.LK xx combo
-close s.LK, wait, counter hit d.MP xx qcf+LP
-close s.LK, walk up close s.LK again
-close s.LK, throw

-(corner), close s.LK, d.MP xx qcf+LP, CC, far s.HK xx hcb+HK, hcb+HK x 2, super, get pissed that you only did about as much damage as Kyo does with one bnb combo :lol:


#19

Actually, Bison can do double j.strong and Chun can do double j.fierce provided they’re not jumping straight up. Don’t even need to make contact, unlike Yun.


#20

What about Kyosuke? Or does he have to actually launch them with df hk?

In any case, I guess not mentioning him doesn’t really leave anything out…probably less than 5% of CvS 2 players out there use him for anything more than a joke.

Not that I have anything against him.