What would S-Tier Guile look like?

guile

#1

Bored at work and thought I’d start a new discussion for fun, but feel free to totally shut this down if it’s goofy or been done already. Maybe because I remember being excited hearing the claims of Ultra being the version where everyone would finally get the character they want before finding out they meant that it was by adding edition select (ugh), but I started wondering: with all the iterations of Guile we’ve had in SF4 and all the things they’ve given then taken away, what would a realistic, reasonable potentially “S” tier Guile even be? I will always only ever consider myself a casual decent Guile player, but if Capcom ever got serious and wanted a game with every character at their max abilities without breaking the characters’ core, I can see Guile having the following:

  1. Auto-correct flash kick (no if’s, ands, or buts about this one… lol)
  2. AE2012 Ultra 1 (no auto-correct if regular fk already does)
  3. USF4 air throw
  4. just slightly lower than SSF4 attack damage numbers (USF4 U2 damage would remain)
  5. Vanilla SB meter gain
  6. USF4 UDK with hitbox modified to hit entire cast
  7. USF4 GHK properties
  8. AE2012 life/stun numbers
  9. faster lk.knee recovery
  10. a backdash with just slightly below the utility of Rose’s (I think it’d be fair… “evasion” is a part of defense, so why shouldn’t a “defensive character” have this? =)
    10)… and if they insist on keeping this p.o.s. move, Guile shades builds meter.

… these are all from memory, so if some don’t make sense I could just be thinking about the wrong edition (there’s been so many, right? lol). Feel free to agree, disagree, add or subtract to this. Somehow I think Guile with the tools above would be legit against similar ultimate versions of the rest of the cast, but I admit I don’t know the game well enough to say for sure.


#2

Buffing all his other aspects/moves makes it a lot harder for others to get in on him or even make a mistake in the match. (In USF4 a lot of buffs were just fixes [Udk, lp+1] or minor nuanced changes [GHK, cr mk] that didn’t really change his fire power)

As a player, you have control over these aspects: low damage just means you have to find more opportunities/maximise your damage output, this means matches will potentially drag on a little longer too. Low meter gain? You need to be conservative with your meter expenditure and management and find opportunities to build it safely Low stun/health? You have to be extra cautious in the MU, can’t take as many trades so your spacing has to get better etc etc.

All this stuff can be mitigated/compensated by the player, so it’s “ok” for Guile to have weaknesses in these areas. You actually become a better player as a result.

What isn’t in your control though is not turning around properly and getting screwed over with your blocking because your character visually doesn’t turn around when he should (you have to second guess yourself basically). 7/10 times that is why you lose as Guile, remainder is due to being stunned or some other bs.

Capcom won’t change it though, whether it’s a means of balance or because it’s too much effort time wise (idk I’m not a developer/animator) so we’re basically stuck with a character that doesn’t fully gel with the system but at the same time somehow “works”. It’s not like he’s shit tier but he does have some bad (but not un-winable) MUs - which makes him pretty much bang in the middle of the deck/solid B tier. I guess that’s an achievement in itself really.

Dont get me wrong, It’s not easy to balance Guile by any means, but I do think Capcom err on the side of caution a little too much when it comes to him.

When I look at Guile objectively I’m always left thinking he’s slightly weaker than he should be. Throw him a bone syndrome

0.02


#3

S tier: Give him Chun’s backdash and Vega’s walk speed. Make Sonic Hurricane 7 frames and hit 3/4 screen! Just for the hell of it throw in a focus with the speed and range of Fei. Oh man, he’d be devastating!


#4

Haha… there’s no tier to categorize that level of devastation man. I was thinking more along the lines of what attributes that he’s already possessed in the previous or current SF4 versions would he need to have kept to be S-Tier (with the addition of a few tweaks like auto correcting fk).

@Pakman - It’s true that balancing Guile is tricky (and Capcom definitely reminds us of that over and over and over… lol), but in a game where every other character was able to keep their best tools and abilities, would the stuff I listed just make him broken even in that context? I guess that’s what I’m interested in… if every character had their perfect tool set to work with, would Guile’s be enough for us to finally be able to lose matches without any of the nagging “If only…” thoughts we all have now.

Again, just a fun discussion not meant to be serious at all. But like Pakman said, it really is about 7/10 of my losses where I feel it was due to a completely unnecessary hole in Guile’s game like his turn animation or UDK not working on someone.


#5

I’m not sure if you remember this or if you were a member, but during Super era the Guile forum was Super dead XD So in terms of perfect tool set it’d be Super properties no doubt about it.

In terms of giving him something that doesn’t break him I’d keep him exactly as he is in Ultra (please don’t kill me!) and give him just a slight damage buff (+10, no more than that) to all fierce punch variation OR to all flash kicks.

It’s relatively unnoticeable for the rest of the cast, his MUs aren’t going to change much as a result if at all, keeps in with the glass jaw Guile theme, and IMO moves him out of the “throw him a bone” camp into the “just right” one.


#6
  1. Sonic Boom builds 15 meter (more than Ultra but less than Vanilla) and does 55 damage
  2. +10 damage on all Flash Kicks
  3. +50 health
  4. Ultra 1 back to 510 damage

Ress Go


#7

I was a member back then, just wasn’t very active. Definitely agree about super Guile being the best “factory” iteration though. Folks talk about his damage in that game being op, but I always thought it made perfect sense for a so called defensive character to punish mistakes hard.


#8

Super Guile with Ultra Guile’s UDK, GHK, and access to Ultra system mechanics. Done.


#9

I am not looking for a better guile, I want a new character, evil guile.

-same fk as USF4 guile, except you can fadc it and follow up with an air throw.
-sonic boom is nerfed, it would be similar to chunli’s projectile in that it does not go full screen.
-light sonic boom, which will travel least distance will have guile’s quick recover, other booms which travel farther will have typical shoto recovery time.
-j.hk can cross
-bazoka knee has less recovery and travels farther, when done up close it will cross the opponent but the move itself will not cause a hit on the opponent if crossing.
-udk throw invincible starting from the first frame, and the startup is faster so that you can combo into udk.
-udk into mp or hp, is an easier link by 1 frame.
-fk charge time gets reduced to that same as usf4 sb charge time
-df.hk gets faster startup and becomes a decent juggle by iself and is much easier to connect in combos.
-cr.mk, can combo into fk.


#10

^That is a complete mess. Half of those things Guile can already do.

  • J.HK can cross up (albeit situational and largely depends on the set up as well).
  • UDK is throw invincible on the first frame.
  • UDK > mp is a 2f link. UDK > St.Hp is a 1f link (a tad bit harder but you can pretty much hitconfirm due to the start up of Upside Down Kick)
  • DF.HK doesn’t have a fast start up but the hitbox properties are adjusted so it’s already easy enough to connect in combos.

#11

Actually UDK is throw invincible from the 6th frame.