What's up with the Kara leniancy?

It seems I can kara any normal or even a special before it goes active into a hyper or a special and it really annoys me because I have to slow my inputs down in a fast paced game like this.

Anyone know if you can actually kara the move until it goes active, I mean if the move has 15 frames of startup, can I cancel it at any time within those 15 frames before the damn thing becomes active? Or is it something like the first 8 frames.

It definitely seems like the former and it’s kinda annoying =/.

you can cancel normals into specials before the hitbox comes out, yes. This was the case in TvC as well and it’s actually very useful for certain things.

most moves can be canceled by special move in start-up, active, or recovery. most special moves can be canceled by hyper moves in start-up, active, or recovery.

What exactly is Kara or a Kara Throw?

Kara = Empty.

Empty cancel has been in since Xmen Children of The Atom.

you don’t have to slow down your inputs, you just have to stay away from certain buffers.

Like if you want a dashing hadoken, but keep getting a dash, shoryuken input, stay away from fwd, fwd to dash fwd. Sure YOU COULD slow down the hadoken and allow the fwd, fwd window to pass. There is a way to still do it really fast though. If you use the the 2 attacks method to dash, its impossible to buffer a shoryuken during the dash when you input a clean hadoken and you can do it as fast as you want.

9\10 there is a trick like that to get around doing inputs slow cause of the huge ass windows. Its not like this is a new problem, its been around for quite a while and the tricks to dodge it most of the time are alternate inputs. I suppose though there are small instances when a trick on the input won’t work but I can’t recall too many of those.

A Kara-cancel is an advance level technique in most fighting games that have this…Originally a glitch in many 2D Games, but where it became noticeable was in Street Fighter 3rd strike, this technique enhances the range of an attack or throw by “empty” canceling an attack into another before it fully extends. It is possible to Kara-cancel into special attacks as well and many characters benefit from this, most noticeable Thor and the expanded range of his Mighty Hurricane. This is achieved by doing the motion of :d::h: and when the attack comes out, you have to put the next input when Thor extends his hammer across the floor and that is :hcb::h: to cancel the animation of the :d::h: (which pushes Thor forwards), thus “empty” canceling a normal attack with a special attack with an expanded range.

Not very advanced in this game, it’s so easy to do I’m unintentionally doing them…Maybe in ST =P and SF3.

Yeah, it’s just a generalized overview, o_O, nevertheless it happens to me a lot, and the solution it’s like Shoultzula says, stay away from certain buffers as the game it’s very…‘Friendly’ shall we say with certain inputs.

Man, I can’t Kara Cancel Thor at will to save my life! But then again, when I attempt it, I’m usually in the down-back position when I attempt the Mighty Hurricane. So what you guys are saying is don’t start from down-back? Start from down? I know it sounds simple but for me it’s complicated :wow: I’ll try it later but are guys saying it’s easier to Kara from the down position?

I can’t think of an easy way to avoid empty cancelling df+H xx QCF hyper off hand.

they were quite huge in mvc2 as well, the kara window that is.

Strider in mvc2 towards the later years of the game could do, orbs, s.fp, empty cancel dog x5, teleport fp, rh, land, s.lp+doom, s.mp, s.fp, s.rh. This setup with the empty cancel dog series allows strider to dump bar while building it. It took quite a while for that to happen though.

The kara’s in this game are already proving to be incredibly useful. For instance with teleport characters, you can throw out a crouching.b\c which are most of the time pretty laggy on recovery. If you throw it out as the opponent is looking for it and tries to punish it, you can teleport and counter. It’ll take time for some of the other kara tactics to become apparent though, its good to leave the door open to allow techniques to develop.

if you explain the scenario a bit more, I’m sure I could help you.

You can kara Skrull’s command throw from pretty much full screen with the right leading move. Scary stuff.

Technically, the cancels are not true Kara-Cancels.

Kara Cancel’s is the process where you utilize the game’s input leniency to achieve a goal.

In the SF games, you could only cancel on hit or block, but the game allowed for 3 frames a cancel into any move, in case you messed up your input.
Typically, this was used to move forward (kara throw), but later became kattobi canceling, roll canceling, and other stuff.

Marvel just lets you cancel any normal into any special at any time. Only moves that are labeled uncancleable cannot.

This also makes for super slow ass karas. Whenever you do one, you’re adding 6-7 frames to the startup of the grabs.

Felicia can OTG after an air combo with df+M to ball hyper. In the Felicia forums it’s listed as :d: :df::m::f::atk::atk:. It is possible to manage :df: :m: :qcf: :atk: :atk: low forward super style but it’s a fast enough cancel you have to do to land it that getting it empty seems to happen fairly often without clean inputs.

I’m not sure I can say it’s really hard but there’s no easy way around it either. Maybe I could try focusing on doing :d::df::m::qcf::atk::atk: to make it more like super cancels instead of starting on :df:.

well, you kinda explained the answer already. Since doing it manually is so fast, the empty cancel happens so to prevent that, you combine the dwnfwd+m with the qcf. It takes some of the pressure off the execution aspect of it when you learn the new input and it won’t feel nearly as hard when mastered.

I can think of some characters from vampire savior who use the exact same input trick for the exact same reason.

Y’know…there are times when I truly think the “kara” cancels in this game were made to help the grapplers get a little more range on their command throws. Especially with how little range most command throws seem to have Especially in a game where huge chunks of screen real estate tend to be taken up by projectiles. But don’t worry, I full acknowledge that that is just a fan wank theory.