When is a matchup considered more frustration then challenge?

When I’m talking about a matchup being more frustration then challenge, I’m talking about it being so difficult that it is either virtually impossible to win consistently at a competitive level and/or so difficult that the characters being used counts more then skill. At the very least, when do you guys consider a matchup to be more frustration then challenge? A 7 - 3 matchup? 8 - 2? 9 - 1? Please give some examples of any bad matchups you guys feel fits the " More frustration then challenge " description, and please describe in detail why the particular matchup(s) is so difficult for the disadvantaged character. Thanks.

Whenever I see Yun or Yang on the loading screen.

As you said, OP, I think it becomes frustrating when the character used matters more than the player’s skill. This is one of the reasons why I don’t play Yun and Yang. I don’t like the idea of having main carry me to victory.

Deejay is my yun right now. I for the love of god cannot beat one just because of the way he moves. Then again he’s an absolute counter pick for my main (cammy).

DJ vs. Blanka in ST… it’s 9/1 at it’s finest.

any matchup that is 8:2 or 9:1, and some times a 7:3 matchup (depending on the game)

To me, there are 3 main elements that characterize bad match-ups:

  1. Both chars have similar tools, but one of their’s is superior in terms of damage, speed etc.
  2. One char limits the other’s toolset. eg. When a character’s main strength revolves around projectiles and the opponent has a move that can punish them easily.
  3. One char beats another by design eg. Keepaway chars vs the typical grappler archetype

In the real-world, it’s usually a combination of these 3 factors, but for me if elements 2 and 3 form a big part of the match, then it’s usually more frustrating than it is challenging.

I main Jedah, so when I see Jon Talbain, my heart drops.

When it’s overwhelmingly in the opponent’s favor.

e.g. Ryu vs Honda in ST.

matchup #'s like a 7-3 or 8-2 are only there to indicate matchup strength. What most people don’t talk about is that a 7-3 in ST is much different than a 7-3 in vampire savior for example and it always boils down to tools. In ST, you don’t have that many tools to choose from because of the game design as opposed to vampire savior which gives you a shit ton.

hypothetically, say you have 5 tools in ST and 1 of them gets taken away because of a match up. 20% of your tools have been removed and if the opponent can shut down another tool, that’s 40% of your tools gone. Now hypothetically say VS has 10 tools to choose from and one of them gets taken away, you’ve lost 10% of your tools and if another one gets shut down, 20% of your tools have been shut down.

The more complex a games design is @ the engine\character level, the less likely you’re going to run into bad matchups when done properly. Usually the most unbalanced games are the games that cater to scrubs because they limit tool sets and that has HUGE consequences down the road. Its why shitty characters in SF4 just don’t have a shot and its why the low tier characters in VS\GG can do pretty well.

For me, the matchups get frustrating when there isn’t enough tools to utilize to escape defensive situations or apply offensive ones.

Everytime I hear that from Jedah players. I want to bitchslap them.

pielle vs Saizo and sho. Their priority just crazy. (breackers revenge)

This is the best way to look at it. An 3-7 in VS is not a 3-7 in SF4.

That’s like every 2D fighter ever though.

HDR Cammy vs. Honda is the most fraud matchup I’ve ever played. :frowning:
SSFIV Cammy vs. Balrog is frustrating as well.

And I always shed a tear for every Zangief that O. Sagat destroys.

Don’t typically get much problems with Yun or Yang, I hate charge characters more or charge moves to be specific or command grabs. Used to be very frustrated when I still cared and wasn’t as good, now I just don’t give a shit but for the most part am able to win most of my matches.

Gief versus E.Honda in ST: 1.5-8.5

Petshop versus Anyone: most ange from 7-3 to 9-1

Anakaris versus mostly Anyone in vsav: I hope you like 2-8’s and 3-7’s

Ivan ooze versus Anyone: 9-1 versus whole cast

when it’s not fun anymore. a bad matchup, even a really bad one, can still be fun if you dig the challenge that particular matchup gives you.

They should put Ivan Ooze in AE.

in st/hdr:
honda vs shotos
cammy vs honda

in ssf4:
bison vs guile

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I, as a player generally don’t mind any sort of tactic used by the opponent, but the only thing that makes me a little angry is when the match is just SO lopsided in the opponent’s favor. I don’t mind challenge, but there is a difference between challenge and a sisyphean task.