I am a newb to ST. I am wondering how the tier breaks down for all of the characters. Thanks for any input!!
You could’ve just done a search for it. There’s been like a dozen tier topics.
It’s something like:
Honda (Gets killed by fireballs, but does OK against 'Sim, and owns everyone without one)
Dictator above the Shotos and Guile?
I thought Dic’s lack of a definitive anti-air would have knocked him lower.
Another thing to remember in SF2 is that it’s mostly based on matchups, not tiers. You can be good with pretty much any character.
please note that this tier ranking excludes original characters
although please also note that O. Sagat would probably be in the top tier if original characters were to be included. And don’t take this ranking or tier (or anyone elses) set up as the Gospel as i have seen very good blanka, t. hawk, and Zangief players (Kuni anyone?) do some major damage, as well as Cammy (whom i’m wonderful with and James Chen is a beast with) but by in large, this should help you out.
huge throw range, fast walking speed, long range normals and powerful combos made up for his lack of anti air.
undisputed top tier:
Cammy, Honda, Fei and Dictator are way too high.
Chun’, 'Gief, and Dhalsim are way too low.
First tier is way too big.
yeah I dunno bout Bison being top, not reliable AA cept standing far HP, crouching HP or vetical jump MK but that’s still not enough really. And only reversal is his super and no defense at all.
Well, to better clarify…
The top tier is large i admit but at the same time i think this really highlights the balance of ST. Some might debate forever over who should be number one but i simply feel that characters like dictator and DJ simply have what it takes to be int he same ranks with elite tier and would have too much if placed in a second tier. Sim, ryu, claw and boxer are all talented and worthy of number one but at the same time Dic and DJ aren’t anything to scoff at either imo.
I think it can be fairly agreed that while cammy is clearly not top tier, she certainly will have a better chance (50% imo) against ryu, (60%) agaist sim than blanka, hawk or gief would have, although all four would struggle against boxer but cammy would have a 50% chance against claw whereas blanka, hawk, and Gief would have a much harder time. And against Chun, cammy’d have a very slight advantage against her than Blanka, Gief or hawk, as those three woudl just outright struggle and just wouldn’t be able to hold up as well. And needless to say, in a head to head match (again imo) Cammy would have at least a 60% chance agaisnt blanka, gief, and hawk. And while i admit you don’t see too many cammy players in too many Super Turbo tourneys (except of course james chen) you sure as hell don’t see too many hawk, blanka, or gief players either unelss you’re in japan.
Honda does lack speed but he can jump over FBs fairly well and he’s a cheap bastard to boot with pretty good reach and strength. While i agree Dictator lacks a decent AA, he makes up for it with good air speed and a versatile head stomp that can be mixed up enough to cause some confusion. Plus his standing roundhouse and forward have a good reach in snuffing out attacks.
As for Fei, if played with an in-your-face aggressiveness and can stay a step ahead of the opponent, Fei can wreck havoc or at the least hold his own. Aggressive Fei players are a pain to deal with if they have you trapped in a corner. match that with his chunky combo’s and I feel he’ll give anyone a run for their money. He has a pretty good mix up game that can keep people off balance as well so that was my logic with placing him where i did.
Chun is quite talented and can always sneak a good combo or two but against boxer, claw, ryu, sim, honda, shoot, even guile, she’ll come awfully close but just won’t be able to pull off the win. Sooner or later (if her opponent is smart enough and not a scrub) chun’s pattern will be decoded and she’ll just be a lame duck.
Sim, like the other characters in my first tier, i belive, are all capable of winning (and some have been used on the way to) a championship. Sim is quite a beast but at the same time its not like he’s a total dominant over the likes of ryu, claw, and boxer either. He certainly can win as demonstrated by jason cole and Alex wolfe but its not like he’s winning championship fights in a 3-0 sweep either.
As for gief,
well, unless you have the precission hands of japanese players like Kuni, his lack of speed (and lariat to boot) just don’t help his cause. Needless to say, even if i did have a higher opinion of Gief’s ability to win, there are just way too many better characters to choose from besides Gief. Can he win some games? Sure, but there are a lot more characters that can win plenty more than gief, so that’s why i put him, hawk, and blanka in the dregs. Are there exceptions to tiers? Sure. The japanese players can use Hawk and Gief in freakish ways and Joeresio Rex (#1 ranked CVS2 player on XBL whom i’ve played in person amany times on numerous SF games) is a real pain with Blanka and Honda in ST. But for the most part, i just don’t see people racking up wins with blanka, hawk and gief. But that’s why i love ST so much, is bc with enough time, any character on any given day can raise absolute hell. Cuz you sure as hell won’t be seeing any Dan players in any finals any time soon lol
Those aren’t actual reasons though. In the first paragraph, you’re just tossing out figures without any actual in-depth evidence (or any evidence at all) to back them up.
You can’t just go “Cammy has a 50% chance of beating so and so” and leave it at that. Where are you getting these percentages from? Your ass?
Read James himself’s reasons for why Cammy is low in the Cammy thread. I’d like to think he knows her a hell of a lot better than you do.
Blanka has a huge throw range as well as a quick jump speed and tons of high priority normals. All of which Cammy lacks. He also has a relatively safe chip move from far away (provided he’s not fighting 'Sim), that again, Cammy lacks.
Honda can jump over fireballs? Lol.
Have fun getting DP’ed.
Out of those 3. Only claw really gives him a hard time. He can easily drill over Ryu’s fireballs, and his standing RH keeps him from jumping. DP’s can hurt him, but that means that the risk is all on the Ryu player’s end, since if he whiffs, he’s getting a s. MK or worse.
He doesn’t really have much trouble with boxer unless he gets him into the corner somehow, and so long as you watch out when 'Rog gets meter, the risk is again mostly on their end. Headbutts past his fireballs can be punished with RH/MK, and dash punches can be stuffed with slides or s./c. MP’s. O. 'Rog often actually gives you more trouble because his dashes hit you even if you’re crouching.
And what do you mean 'Gief doesn’t have his lariat?
I don’t see how anyone can put him below Hawk since he has way more range on his command throw, and he has a much easier time getting past fireballs; not to mention better normals in general.
All you’ve done is spout off opinions without showing that you have any real understanding of how some of these match-ups work in real time. Too many “I feel” and “could” or “would” statements in there. Half your reasons sound like they came right out of a player’s guide’s description of the characters or something, and you contradict your second paragraph at the end.
First, I did a set of tiers, not actual rankings, none of the characters had numbers next to their names, thus meaning that theyre actual rank can be debated. Just because sim was at the bottom of the first tier and dic at the top doesnt mean thats how I rank them in a tier (and the same thing goes with hawk, gief, and blanka). Its just how I typed their names out.
Second, srt4mike was just asking for tiers, I gave my take on them, and as I mentioned, I made note of not to take my rankings (or anyone elses) as the absolute truth. I guess I should have echoed this more evidently.
Third, srt4mike made note that he was a newb to ST. Because of that, I didnt want to throw in too many details and overwhelm and or confuse him (although Im sure what I type later on will do that, and if so, I sincerely apologize srt4mike). I have no idea if hes a vet at one SFer or multple SFers, therefore, Im just going to make some condensed comments and leave it at that. And I do this because when I try to learn something new, I prefer to absorb in basic bits, and once I have the basics down, then Ill move onto the more technical stuff.
Blankas throw range is good but useless if he gets zoned in by Fireballs. True he can slide underneath but most would know this ahead of time and have a plan b set up like a tiger knee or a short hurricane kick into a throw. At least Cams jab spinning knuckle can pass through them and her flying frankensteiner can leap over them. Blankas jump speed is also impressive but could be just as easily countered by an equally as quick canon spike or dragon punch. Plus, on the note of blanka, his rolling attacks arent the hardest thing to counter when blocked. If bison blocks a rolling attack, he can psycho crush it, ryu, DJ, and sim can fireball it, boxer and claw can get a free fierce punch in. Cams canon spike can also be easily countered but she has a much quicker recovery time and can sometimes come out scratch free from a blocked canon spike, whereas a blocked rolling attack will have a better chance of getting nailed.
Blankas ground game does have great priority with good damage as well but cammys ability to move in and out of hit range while sticking out standing fierce punches and roundhouse kicks, or crouching forward kicks or strong punches (which can lead into a canon spike or super) give her a decent edge. And she does lack a good chip game but she has a better cross up game that makes up for it. Hawk and Giefs lack of speed and large bodies are another reason why I put them in the dregs. They are powerful and gief can move through fireballs but theres just a lot of them to hit and cross up. Hawk at least has some type of anti-air on wake up, Gief has the lariat but even that wont save him too often. And on the note of the lariat, I meant to type his lack of low lariat, because the lack of such allows him to get swept a lot more often. He can pass through guiles sonic boom (for instance) with his banishing fist or a lariat but guile can still hit him with a crouching forward or sweep him afterwards either way.
Ouroborus helped clarify earlier why bison (dictator) could be viewed as top tier so thats why I felt minimal need to go further down that road, and DJ I feel is top tier for these reasons
His super (like Hondas) can be used to travel through fireballs and can also be used for juggling purposes like doing his super then immediately following with a jack knife kick or doing a jack knife kick then following immediately with his super.
His jack knife is a wonderful anti air
His crouching short kick can snuff a lot of attacks as can his other basic attacks while doing decent damage at the same time.
His jumping forward kick is an easy cross up tool that can lead to some devastating combos (Cross up forward kick, a few crouching jabs, super, jack knife blade kick is one of many)
Because of his solid normal attacks, his strong AA jack knife kick, a wicked super, and the fact that it can be tough to sweep DJ, this puts him in my top tier.
Honda was placed in the second tier because his sumo smash is quick enough to fly over numerous fireballs before there is time to counteract, and even if so, Honda could probably win the damage exchange anyway. Plus, his orochi grab can be put to cheap use very well (jump in with a blocked jumping short, land orochi grab or do a sumo smash that lands right in front of a crouching opponent that misses then orochi grab for instance) Shoot you can even do a bear hug, sumo splash (and then if blocked) orochi grab. Zoning Honda can be quite tricky as he can just sumo smash right over the fireballs and gain ground. His standing roundhouse is also good for taking down opponents who block high. Put all those elements together and Honda can be a pain.
Sim can zone out both boxer and ryu, but boxer can trade hits with sim and usually come out on top. Boxers speed of attacks can often push sim into a corner and then from there a good fight will ensue. Ryu can jap dragon punch sims limbs and his hurricane kick can advance him over sims limbs (and I believe) fireballs as well, as can his jab dragon punch. And because his jab dragon punch has such a quick recovery time, he could immediately do another to knock out a long limb Plus a swept sim against a rushing ryu has a lot of thinking to do quick as ryu could T+Strong punch him then sweep him, cross him over, or do a low short kick into a stun fireball or if blocked get thrown. His punch drill can be kicked out by ryu by jumping straight up and hitting roundhouse kick.
Im not saying ryu would dominate but sim wouldnt win every round with only of his health left. And the same goes for boxer. Shoot, just like at the evo 2006 west finals. Boxer did take some losses but at least in three or four rounds that Dhali won against boxer were won with less than 5% health left, if that. Thats not getting owned. Thats a nearly lost round.
And again to srt4mike, I hope these tiers will give you a bit of an idea of how diverse and balanced this game can be. I feel one way (gief should be in a lower tier), some other people feel another (gief should be in a higher tier). I hope these tiers will give you some idea of where to start, although they may also confuse you too, and if thats the case, sorry about that. Im sure there will be another youre wrong/your reasons are baseless comment after this post of mine, which is fine as Ill leave those alone to collect dust, but I hope those who did post up tiers were able to help you out with your question. Often times (as Im sure youve seen) people will post something then lose track of the immediate question (just look at what I posted) and go off somewhere else. I made that mistake of going off topic and Im sorry that doing such distracted from your original question. Good luck finding a fun character to use, as ST has lots of them!
I’m not going to drag this out, so I’m just going to say that most of that is very poor reasoning.
The list I posted is a slight edit of NKI’s which is reflective of not only his opinions, but the widely held opinions of many high level american and japanese players. All of whom I can guarantee know the game better than you.
The only character I think you could argue with on mine is Chun’ since I stuck her above Ryu.
okay, you are just listing the worst possible outcomes for blanka, while listing favorable outcomes for cammy.
you can say the same about everyones throw. and who says you cant bait their tiger knee/hurricane kick and upball afterwards? also its possible to throw cammy out of her jab knuckle before it even connects
still not as easy as dping cammy when jumping in or 80% of the cast. only other character thats much harder to dp out of the air is vega and sim.
smart blankas dont spam on blanka balls but use them mainly to position and set up throws and crossups
while she does have a fast walking speed, her moves dont have much range. more than half the cast has better range than her, including blanka. how can you say this gives her a decent edge when the fact is more than half the cast has better reach than her
funny, considering blanka has like one of the best crossups in the game. the tip of his j.lk is almost invincible.
Those wacky tiers are from an old 1994 issue of GamPRO… GAMEPRO! They mean nothing. :looney:
Lmao, I knew those tiers and descriptions sounded like something out of a magazine or something, I just couldn’t put my finger on it.
I read this on one of NKI’s threads in which he was translating what Daigo said. According to Daigo:
Top: Sim and Chun
I’m not sure but I think you’d have to put O. Sagat in there somewhere too.
T3h N3W Ti3r Li5t I5 ThI5:
ALL T3h R35t
I personally don’t think Cammy is the worst in the game. Just 'cause T.Hawk and Zangief are in the game. Seriously, though, if you make broad enough tiers, yeah, Cammy is in the bottom tier. That’s the beauty of the game, even low tier characters can win, just like the two Hawks at this past X-Mania. And just 'cause they CAN win, doesn’t mean it’s time to bump them up in rankings. Cammy, Zangief, and T.Hawk are the bottom tier in this game, order is debatable.
And to counter some specific points:
Zangief is way better against Ryu than Cammy. T.Hawk is probably also better, as there are many who believe T.Hawk actually have an advantage in that fight. Thing is, Cammy REALLY has to know what she’s doing to beat a good Ryu, whereas T.Hawk doesn’t have to be as precise. Cammy is NO BETTER than 50/50 with Ryu, whereas it is debatable that Gief and T.Hawk are. Cammy is AT BEST 50/50 with Ryu, and that’s really stretching it. Ryu has the advantage in this fight, no question. Blanka, I’m not sure. I think Blanka might also have a slight advantage over Cammy against Ryu, but I don’t know enough about the fight.
Cammy owns up Dhalsim for free compared to Zangief and T.Hawk. Blanka, again, I’m not sure since I’m not all tht familiar with Blanka.
Chun Li, I would think Cammy has a better chance against her than Gief, T.Hawk, and Blanka, 'cause she can kinda keep up with Chun Li. I don’t know what the win ratio is for those three vs. Chun Li, but with Cammy, I’d say it’s 6/4 in favor of Chun Li just because of the stupid issue that Cammy can’t deal well with the meaty Offensive Crouch + Roundhouse.
In the head-to-head matchups, first up is Cammy vs. Blanka. I will say this much: the fight is pretty even. I can’t say I’ve played super expert Blankas, but it’s not a fight I dread. There are so many other characters that can cause problems for Cammy, and Blanka isn’t one of them. In any case, neither character really has a distinct advantage in this fight, IMO. So it’s not far from 50/50. But I think if the Blanka knows what he is doing, it’ll probably shift slightly in Blanka’s favor. Blanka’s that don’t know what they are doing will get mopped up by Cammy.
Cammy vs. Zangief is really hard for Gief. Cammy wins this fight, probably 8/2 or 7/3. Cammy can EASILY lose this fight, though, if she gets careless and playful. Too hard for Gief to get in on her. His best chance is to trade Crouch Roundhouse with her Low Forward. You do waaaay more damage and knock her down. If you can out mind games her from there, when she gets up, you will win. But if you can’t get in on her, it’s a really big problem.
Cammy owns up T.Hawk almost for free without even needing to compare it to other people fighting T.Hawk. This fight is easily 9/1 in favor of Cammy IMO. Probably one of the worst match-ups in the game.
Now, after all that, knowing Cammy beats up other low tier characters doesn’t mean she’s better than them. I personally think she is slightly better than Gief and Hawk tier-wise, but that’s only because I use her, feel comfy with her, and am biased.
Thanks for all the info guys! I didn’t want to start a real heated debate. I just wanted a basic list. All this info really helps though. We’re switchin’ it up a bit from 3s and really enjoying it. Now I must start my Ryu and Dee Jay training ::wonder:
yeah i heard cammy owns this fight with only one button, :mk:
It might be because O. Sagat is soft banned in Japan (dunno if that’s still true) so maybe he doesn’t play enough O. Sagats to include him in the rankings?