Who's worse? Sean or Twelve?

I understand the tier list is based on Tourney results, but I question why Twelve is considered better than Sean overall? Just weighing the pro’s and con’s of each character this is what I can surmise:

Sean: Has an okay wakeup game. Not a good one but not the worst one either -that honor belongs to Q and Twelve-. Decent Supers that he has a decent time linking into. Most of the same normals as the rest of the shoto’s like Sweep and cr.MK. And an okay tick-throw game not much different than the other Shoto’s only with worse Specials.

Twelve: Bad wakeup game. One decent Super that 90% of the time people use as an Anti Air. Has next to no combos. 2 decent air pokes. Almost entirely reliant on tick-throw setups. Get’s raped hardcore if he guesses wrong in the air by a little over half the cast.

I’ve always been of the opinion that Sean is the better character of the two, for what should be fairly obvious reasons. The only thing Twelve has going for him is that he’s fucking annoying to fight.

I always said that Twelve is way worse than Sean. Sean at least has some solid stuff, like pokes and usable supers, but Twelve on the otherhand just seems like gimmicks, gimmicks and gimmicks.

yeah sean has solid pokes alright. which ones exactly? st.mk? oh I know, f.hk. Oh, oh, standing fierce!
ok ok, st.mk is alright kind of.

and twelve doesn’t? ok.

Uhm, Twelve’s standing pokes are pretty unsafe and are easy parries. Sean has crMK into Super or EX Tatsu or if he’s close enough SRK. Plus the Sweep and his st.MP. He can still do cr.LP, cr.LK, etc into Super too.

totally man. all those characters who are going to hit twelve after a blocked st.mp.
if you already made up your mind why did you make this thread.

both of them are underpowered. there’s the actual answer you don’t want to accept. there is nothing more specific than that.

I don’t even think Sean is that bad. His moves have low priority I think though :frowning:

Just the fact that 12 plays differently than all the other characters in the game makes him better imo. Sean is like Ryu with a bad hangover. Only like 1/4 of the shoto moves he has work decently

Sean is like an upgraded version of Ryu… :rofl: sorry i just hate ryu with a passion, back on track 12 is better than Sean.

That’s a really good point. He does play entirely different compared to the rest of the cast. I think a lot of people lose to Twelve just because they don’t know the matchup.

Twelve at least has a favorable match against Hugo(imo)… one move(j.hp) controls the whole match… maybe Q…

I don’t think Sean has a favorable match against ANYONE…

Twelve isn’t horrible by any means, but his bad matchups are REALLY bad… Dudley, Urien, and Ken…

I’m pretty decent with Twelve, as he’s my best character, but it took me so long to switch to Remy and winning matches more easily feels good…

With Twelve you have to nickel and dime damage whenever you can get it… by being as unpredictable and sneaky as possible… I noticed when ever I did win, I always barely won, because the matches were so long and drawn out repeatedly poking for small gains even when I was better than the person I was playing against…

Now, I just play Twelve for fun… Remy’s biggest weakness is Akuma’s fucking stun bar… against some characters, he can lose off of two mistakes but I’m willing to deal with that more than Twelve’s poor damage output…

Twelve is way better than Sean, and I’ll explain why, but first let me break down your post and show you where you are wrong.

Wakeup game isn’t terribly important when comparing the two. Yes, I guess Sean does have a DP (albeit a terrible one) so his wakeup is better. However Twelve has way, way more tools than Sean that make up for this tiny fact.

Sean has more ways of landing super yes. If you asked me which super was Seans best, I’d say SA 1. 3 stocks, and you can hit it off a c.lk, c.lp, c.lk xx super or c.mk super, or close s.HK super. They are tough to hit confirm, it doesn’t come out as clean as other characters hit confirms. SA 2 does more damage but has fewer ways to land it. SA 3 does good damage, and is hit confirmable, but does nowhere near what it should do for a 1 stock super.

Tick throws? Well, everyone in the game can do tick throws, and Twelve’s way, way better at getting throws than Sean. In fact, landing throws is a huge part of Twelves game. Twelve can tick throw, air tick throw, air dash feint HP or HK into throw, airdash empty feint throw.

The areas where Twelve becomes a better character in my opinion is his ability to zone, his speed, his underrated normals, and his ability to get out of a bad situation. Twelve is fast. Twelve’s airdash is good. A good Twelve knows how to keep opponents out and frustrate them, and knows when to turn it on with air-dash insanity. A Twelve super jump cancelling off f.MK into tick throw or combo mixup can actually be quite intimidating. They can keep you guessing, cross you up for a big damage combo into super (airdash HK (crossup), c.lk, d,db,b lp, xx SA 1) etc.

Sean on the other hand, is just not scary. He has next to no good mixups, his special moves are a joke that either leave him wide open, or are so easy to see coming and parry it’s criminal. Sean has no gimmicks, not that gimmicks are especially good, but I point this out because Twelve on the other hand does have a lot of good ones. EX NDL for instance, is utterly annoying and mostly safe. As his EX air dive move.

Twelve fails because of low health and he simply doesn’t do enough damage (compared to other characfers). Sean fails because he’s just a completely nuetered shoto with next to nothing to offer compared to the rest of the cast. Yes, he still retains a couple of those good shoto normals, but it’s not enough. Twelve just has much more to work with.

At the end of the day, Twelve is really underrated.

And it just so happens that there is some beastly Twelve action on SRK’s front page. I suggest checking it out. I’m not saying a Sean could go on a tear like that, with convincing wins against good Makoto’s Uriens Elenas Ibukis etc. , it’s just that I’ve never seen it. I’m personally convinced that Capcom intended for Sean to be the “Dan” of the game, IE, a character that people picked to handicap themselves against players they outclassed. That’s what I use him as. No disrespect to Sean mains (do you exist?!?!?!?!), but that’s how I feel about it.

Q and Twelve are C tier, Sean is alone in D tier, I could go on and on.

^^ Nice writeup but a few things: I compared Sean’s tick throws to the other Shoto’s, I think you could agree he has the same general tick setups like the others… They’re just not as good.

I also pointed out that Twelve is almost entirely based on Tick Throws, I didn’t emphasize how annoying he can be with runaway but that’s a given for the character. I agree he has a ton more options for Tick Throws.

Neither of Twelve’s Dives are safe on block. That’s the problem with Twelve, if he guesses wrong in the air that could easily be it for him. I do think a Twelve player is more likely to win just because the other guy does not know the matchup.

Who are you playing that uses regular dive…

EX Dive is safe on the block for the most part, you show me someone that can just punish that shit on the fly, or else fuck out of here…

Twelve’s EX special moves aren’t really bad all…

I punish EX Dive all the time. It is not safe on block.

Probably Twelve, but who knows for sure they are both pretty bad.

Twelve is better than Sean. Both characters take below-average health and have a hard time trying to deal big damage. Only difference is Twelve doesn’t need to rely on big damage, and for what it’s worth, his hit-and-run style can be more effective than Sean painstakingly trying to get that big damage in. Even in terms of gimmicks, I’d say Twelve is superior.

Also, there has yet to be a Sean player who made it past 10th Dan in the Danisen(Yamazaki finally made Tsuwamono rank). Just sayin’~

sean is a complete garbage can. where to start? when he’s on his back and trying to get up, he’s as helpless as a capsized turtle near an ant hill. he has zero invincibility. even off his ex dp. throws grab his dps easily. you can make him your bitch without worry. what the fuck is he going to do? parry? then what. a pathetic combo. i’d also like to mention his air defense. i don t know how you re suppose to stop anyone from jumping at you. his dp again is slow with no invincibility, besides jump attack (with a single strike) and jabbing out of the air are about his best options (not very scary to dudley or alex). his d+roundhouse is for some reason slower than the other shotos and has more recovery. his overhead is a joke. his ex’s are worthless crap. ok, so what does he have? kara throw is applicable . shoto d+mk (only useful with a super bar), uoh. his c.s.rh is probably his best normal. thats about it. oh, and it’s cool to roll through hugos when they try to 720. :encore:

  1. Sean’s confirms are not tough.

  2. His air mixup game is largely useless versus most of the mid-high tier characters. Urien, Ken, Gouki, Dudley, Makoto, Yang, Ryu (especially denjin). All of these characters can make Twelve really regret jumping towards you.

  3. I don’t know about EX NDL, but his dive kicks are not safe.

It’s odd, but I believe the reason Sean is better then Twelve is precisly because he plays somewhat like a shoto (albeit a castrated one). I mostly play shotos myself, so switching to Sean for me is no big deal. Most of the skills I learnt playing shotos transfer over quite nicely.

  • EX DRA is safe on block and even parry(in most cases).
  • SRKs do give Twelve much less freedom for gliding, but he can mix it up with different strength DRAs and bait a whiffed SRK for some type of damage. The same can be applied to Urien’s anti-air fireballs. Air EX Tatsu is more of a reason why Ken owns Twelve.
  • Twelve’s way harder to learn(I’d say THE hardest character to learn in the game), but he has some tricks in him that give him somewhat of an edge over Sean. I’d also much rather face a Sean than a Twelve, just because Sean gimmicks are way more predictable. :stuck_out_tongue: