Why are developers still making fighting games so hard to learn?


#1

I was just making rounds reading my usual blogs and found this: http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/super-street-fighter-iv-arcade-edition-trial-fail/

I think the first thing that comes to mind reading this is that this isn’t new. Capcom’s touted trial modes are absolutely awful about teaching new players how to play their game. I got into fighting games after SF4 came out, and I did my time in the trials for that game and in Super, and most of them I could not complete until I found this site and the various resources that it links to (youtube, sonichurricane.com, option-select.com, hats off to those guys). But I don’t understand why capcom doesn’t give a shit? Am I wrong that they’re missing out on a huge audience that doesn’t have my perseverance, that will get SF4 and say “I can’t do any of this shit, I’m going back to smash bros.” One of the more hardcore game, Blazblue, actually has an extremely detailed tutorial… but it almost doesn’t matter because most people to enter into the FG scene through Blazblue since it’s a lot more niche than Street Fighter. Capcom failed on this front several times recently, with a useless “tutorial” in SF4, SSF4, MvC3… The only times when Capcom games seen to have any kind of useful teaching tool in them is when Capcom isn’t actually developing them: HDR at least had basic hitbox data in the training mode which I think should be standard by now, and the upcoming 3SOE which is shaping up to have one of the most detailed trial/tutorial modes. Both of these games were reworked by studios capcom outsourced to. I just don’t think I’ve ever seen a company so vehemently opposed to trying to garner a wider audience for its franchises. I mean all of these can be so much bigger than they are.

We all love Capcom’s fighting games, even though they keep burning us: I just think we should ask for some basic things in all their upcoming fighters- specifically:

-A detailed step-by-step tutorials for noobs, in addition to the current trials
-Hit-box data in training mode
-Frame data in training mode

None of these things are that hard to implement: frame data and hitboxes should be available standard in every fighter— why do we have to wait for some late night blog post or for someone to hack the game so that we can have FUNDAMENTAL information for these games, especially for competition.


Making an Accessible Fighting Game
#2

boy are you posting this on the wrong part of the internet


#3

Then stay away from fighting games because you’re clearly too casual to appreciate them or understand them


#4

I think you probably might want to change the thread title to something a little less “scrubby”. You make some points, hit box data and frame data implemented into the game would be nice. But it’s something that we don’t really need. Who knows. Maybe Capcom doesn’t include this data built in because they want the community to figure this out for themselves? I could be wrong.


#5

I believe that either Seth or Sven mentioned that the Japanese developers didn’t want to give out hitbox data.

That said, I agree with this sentiment. The Challenge/Training/Mission modes in Capcom’s fighters don’t do jack to actually teach you how to play the game properly. Sure it’s nice to teach combos and shit, but what really needs to be taught are the fundaments. Stuff like spacing, zoning, footsies, etc.


#6

Um…what? How are fighting games these days hard? They’re pretty much aimed towards the casual audience in every way shape and form.


#7

The thing is teaching someone how to play fighting games from scratch is really hard to do and also very bad. You don’t want to spoon feed players on how to play the game cause that will limit their gameplay. The most companies can do teach players the mechanics of their game, and basic things they need to understand like footsies, anti-air, and such.

Games do need better tutorials and need to look at BB as an example. I remember the first time doing SSF4 trials and i saw FADC im like huh? wtf is that? If capcom had like a preview move i probably would of understood but for months i was stumped (mainly because i didn’t look at how it was done) i don’t know how exactly i learned how to do it cause i just watched streams and saw people with Ryu Shoryuken FADC Ultra and i was like that shit is easy.

Also generally games are getting easier (which is pretty sad)


#8

Theres still time to learn Smash brothas.

But honestly, Acquiring means to actually learn a game is one of the pieces that make fighting games worth playing. Why do you want your fighting games to be easy? You dont seek a challenge? Idk, but its like asking to read your opponents mind for free lol


#9

Pretty much this. BB takes the cake for having the best training/tutorial mode hands down. But a lot of learning fighting games have been trial and error. Get your ass kicked and understand why you lost type of deal. Besides with this whole community and lots and lots of player experimentation there really is no need for built in data for these games.


#10

Virtua Fighter 4 Evo has the best tutorial and learnnig tools.


#11

If you speak of Tekken or Mortal Kombat yes. But if you just started with Fighting Games or took a long break, SSF4 can be really hard. When I started playing SSF4, I couldn’t even link combos.

Tekken or Mortal Kombat are much more casual friendly imo.


#12

Because being rewarded for losing (Ultra’s) and simplified controls are hard…how exactly?

And top play MK and Tekken is a lot more complicated than SF, especially IV. But you know, whatever.


#13

I do understand replies in which the sentiment is “Fighting games are easy enough/you don’t want all FGs to be smash bros, do you?”, but you’re missing the point I’m trying to make.

Regardless of whether you think today’s fighting games are easier or not, they ARE more complex. SFII, which this community heralds as the very greatest, had a very simple rule system: you had 6 normals (give or take), 3 special moves, and a health bar. SFIV’s rule set is much more complex: FA(DC), super meter that doubles as EX meter, ultra meter, on top of the usual move and health bars. I don’t think I have to mention all the shit Blazblue has piled up on top( but like I mentioned Blazblue actually does do a very good job of explaining itself.) I’m not proposing capcom games teach footsies/spacing/zoning, because these are metagames players developed from the rules they were given, but rather that they would do a better job of explaining the basic ruleset which they are NOT currently doing.


#14

And don’t bring up BlazBlu. Because pretty much everyone agrees its basically a severely dumbed down Guilty Gear.


#15

I can feel people screaming at you through the internet OP.

It’s true that SF4 has a terrible training mode and BlazBlue did a very good job at this.

That doesn’t mean you should have everything handed to you. People put a lot of time and energy into learning these systems inside and out regardless of the training mode. Even if you learn every training option possible you’re still going to suck at the game playing against other people. It’s why playing against a CPU and IRL are so different. One can dynamically switch their playstyle. The other only knows what it was originally told.

Basically: You’re gonna get your ass kicked for a long while either way. Suck up those losses and pay attention to what you’re doing wrong.


#16

This thread is already done. Enough with the bullshit. There’s nothing hard to learn about, "Get your opponent’s life down before they get yours down"
If you think you’re learning, and you still can’t rack up wins, maybe you’re not cut out for fighters.

All the bullshit you brought up that makes SF4 “complex” isn’t anything new. The super/ex meter has been done in SF3 and a few others. The “ultra” thing is quite honest, S-Groove.

The only thing that’s new is focus, and it’s really not that complex. It’s two buttons.

They also toned shit down, no more guard stun meter, no UOH, no grooves/isms, no custom combos, no “Alpha Counters”… fighters aren’t getting more complex.

If you really think SF4 is “complex”, step away from it for a little. You’re REALLY overanalyzing it. It’s not complex by any means. It’s one of the simplest fighters ever made.


#17

So you say doing combos in SSF4 is easier than in T6 or MK9?
When I play MK9 for example, I can learn all combos of a character in one day.
SSF4 on the other hand require strict timing and you have to understand how to link combos.

Lol never.


Scrubquotes is back!
#18

My biggest hurdle has always been button timing. I remember loving Tekken 3 and it’s training mode. You could always see a demo of the move or combo you chose along with sounds corresponding to each button press. VF5 has something similar, but only for more difficult moves. it’d be cool if an update showed up improving AE and MVC3’s training modes, but then again, it’s nice to want things.


#19

http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dwZ10.jpg

btw, amazing thread…


#20

Holy shit, that was wonderful magic that I’ve never encountered before. What LAUGHS!