Why Ibuki not top tier?

ibuki

#1

She has it all to be a great offensive powerhouse. She has the best mix-ups in the game. Watching Red or Aruka play you can see how cautious players are. Ibuki is very intimidating. Why isn’t she top tier? I know her defense is low, but doesn’t her mix-up game and speed makes up for that?


#2

NO. She takes the second most damage in the game. And her attacks are weak.


#3
  • Ibuki has disgusting stamina
  • Ibuki priority is low
  • Ibuki has lots of recovery in general

You’d be surprised how much damage Ibuki is actually capable of. MK->HP Raida does 40 damage an a BUCKETLOAD of stun. That’s the same as Shippu for no super meter.

Where Ibuki has strengths, she also has weaknesses that equal or arguably overshadow them.


#4

I agree with stamina, but frankly I think that’s her only real issue. Her priority is actually pretty good (cMK is insane, keeps Chun Li at bay almost easily!!), and se is safe with most of her moves, so I don’t see where recovery would be a big problem.
Her attack options are insane, and has nice defensive tools too. Bad stamina is not bad only by itself, but also because taking so much damage makes you fear to attack too much, and randomness works to good against her. Seriously, I think that giving a character Ibuki or Gouki stamina level is stupid, stamina shouldn’t go below a certain level, when if you still need to fix a character you should rather weaken other things. A character with stamina that bad will never be solid in any game, just because (s)he gets too prone to randomess.
With standard stamina and nothing else changed she’d be top or near-top. Same deal as Gouki, really.


#5

Ibuki’s priority is definitely not low. That’s just a myth that goes around because nobody really studies her. It’s actually very high.

Ibuki has better pokes than majority of the cast. Hands down. She can go back and forth with shotos easily with her pokes like c.MK, s.MP, s.MK and f+HK which goes right over all shoto low pokes. Her c.MK is just as good as Chun’s as far as priority. It’s just not cancellable into anything is the only problem. f+MK makes low pokes risky as well since it allows her to essentially small jump over them and outprioritize them. Very safe on block and even if parried (from a distance).

s.MK in general just beats a ton of stuff. s.LP stuffs just about anything as well and gives her insane frame advantage on block. The only real issue with her poking games is that she can’t cancel or link into anything off of her c.MK (her longest ranged low poke). Meaning that she has to play more of a mind game vs. people with cancellable low pokes. Which is why you see a lot of option select parry into s.MK with Ibuki. You’re looking to fish out that low poke so you can punish with damage or stuff the poke out before it starts.

Ibuki has no problems with priority. Even recovery on majority of her moves pretty good. Very few of her attacks have serious frame disadvantage. Raida is minus 5 on block but it’s very tough to react to since she has so many other things she’s hitting you with that are pretty safe.

Her main issues are damage and lack of verifiable low options. She has to play a few more mind games to create knockdowns/damage compared to characters like shotos, Yang or Chun who can just catch you not low blocking one time and they get advantage. Once she gets in though it’s tough to get her out and she has a lot of options at close range.


#6

What are examples of Ibuki’s verifiable low options? Do you mean hitting with something low to confirm first before continuing a combo? Like Ken’s crouch-MK to super?

I feel that in addition to deficiencies mentioned, Ibuki is on the business end of some really bad matchups that make it difficult for her to overcome. Makoto and Yun are major examples.

But man… anyone is dangerous when played correctly. I’ve always wondered why Oro was never considered top tier… having seen vids of the player from Japan named “dirty” work his magic.


#7

When it comes to verifiable low options…that’s exactly what I mean. Ibuki definitely has pokes that can outpriortize and go over opponent’s low options but the difference is that if she hits someone with with a low c.LK there’s no way for her to verify damage. c.LK to EX qcb+K you dont need to confirm always just because it’s hella safe on block (except against SA3 Necro) just because of the pushback. c.LK is nice but it’s not her longest reaching poke and it doesn’t chain into itself and obviously not verifiable by itself. c.MK doesn’t go into anything either.

c.HK can go into her HK chain and you can verify that but it’s a sweep. Meaning the start up and recovery is rather too long to use in a regular footsie situation. You can throw it around once in a while but whiffed sweeps will = death vs. most other characters.

I would say Ibuki’s only real bad matchup is Yun. That’s at high level too. Mainly because Yun can almost always potentially destroy Ibuki even as the round starts. You have to have a strong ability to defend against Genei just to have a chance. Luckily majority of US Yuns aren’t that good but a good one is like a time bomb always waiting to go off on you. Even if you make him waste a 3rd of his Genei bar before he hits you he can still take up to half life.

Makoto…she just looks scary. Statistically Ibuki vs. Makoto is not as terrible as it looks in the videos. It’s preferable for Mak to use SA1 vs. you just because Ibuki moves around too much for SA2 to be reliable. People still do use it vs. her but Ibuki makes connecting that 100 percent stun difficult. Mak’s SA2 is very situation specific and can potentially end the round super quick but Ibuki’s pokes and speed overall are too good for Mak to bank on placing her in the right position to end the game every match.

SA1 Mak gives her more ways to verify damage on Ibuki. Granted…it’s not instant death like SA2 Mak but overall you will get more chances to damage. In the same topic…SA1 Mak also makes her more tolerable for Ibuki. It’s one bar and it takes a while to charge meaning if you play a good game from the start Mak will have to burn EX to stay in the game and Mak without meter is a lot less scary.


#8

I agree that a good Yun player is so difficult to fight against. Half the time, I try to figure out how to knock him down… because that’s really the only way I can take off chunks of life from him. I try to force Yun to play wakeup games because aside from his EX bicycle kick (which wastes meter), I don’t think he has a real solid way to get Ibuki off of him. However, when he’s upright and spacing me, I have a hard time finding any opportunity to attack him, let alone avoiding some of Yun’s own methods of easy knockdowns… which leads to his own wakeup games. It’s worse when he has Genei-Jin stocked. I gotta learn more footsie games or something… dunno. I end up losing a lot of close rounds and matches to him because, like you said, winning against Yun depends on how well I defend Genei-Jin and maximizing 2 or 3 instances when I knock him down. He just wears you down and there’s not much you can do.

I guess I have a phobia against Makoto, but it’s getting better now that I heard some advice on how to keep her at bay. I still get totally demolished some games, but at least I’m a bit more competitive in other close matches.


#9

As for Oro… his low game is arguably one of the worst in the game. c.MK has good priority but short range and he has to be right next to you to verify any damage off of it and all of the options have terrible recovery on block. His sweep has below average recovery and little range. c.LK is basically just a quicker version of c.MK.

His fireballs…although good for zoning make his hitbox huge. I’ve seen Oro get hit by all kinds of crazy stuff while throwing fireballs. Chun Li is an obvious example. His regular throws also have a problem of always thowing the opponent in the opposite direction. He can’t use throws to keep people in the corner like a majority of the cast and this limits mind games for Oro in the corner. Obviously when he has meter he has all the mind games in the corner but some characters like Yun and Yang dont allow him to build meter off one close MP. Getting that close to connect close MP to begin with is tough on quite a few characters.

His matchup vs. Chun Li is terrible. She can punish about anything he does with reverse super and c.MK goes under all pokes except his c.MK. It’s like playing Mak except you have almost no poking options. You can’t even really jump in on her. c.MK beats all his jump ins.

I would say his main problem is that he is always banking on one move (close s.MP) to win matches and without that it’s hard for him to create momentum. He can’t verify damage from anything outside of a very close range. Granted things change dramatically when he connects it but it’s tough for him to stay on top of people otherwise. All of his pokes push him away from the opponent and at times he needs to create risky air games to set people up for damage.


#10

Say what you want, Ibuki has the tools to be top-tier. With the exception of Yun, Yang, and Chun no one will “out quick” her. Great Ibuki players dictates the speed of the Match. Isn’t that what the tier list about? Who has the advantage over who? If Ibuki controls majority of her matches, shouldn’t she be top tier?


#11

Tiers are based around inherent strengths and weaknesses, and the favourability of matchups. Ibuki has no clear advantage over any of the higher tiered characters, IMO. She’s solid, but seriously flawed due to her stamina.


#12

here is ibuki

Amazing zoning and obvious priority lock down

You get thrown 2 times and parried once, you lose

She has no low verifications besides short, which means her low range pretty much blows. This is why Akuma/Yang own her in the tier list.

that is why she is mid tier, She is just not consistent to win


#13

(WARNING: LONG post)

She has the tools to be “good” but statistics show that she isn’t good enough to be top tier. She just takes damage too quickly and doesn’t dish it out fast enough. She can be doing great against a Yun player but all that Yun player needs to do is put her in one Genei combo and half her life is gone. Not to mention he’ll have nearly half his life bar ready to do another half life combos. 2 half life combos = GGPO Ibuki. Ibuki is good but she just doesn’t quite have the damage potential that other higher tiered characters have. When it comes to tournament play she just cant make as many mistakes as other characters.

It’s funny that you bring up the outquick thing because although speed is important it’s not the MOST important thing by itself as far as deciding a top tier character. Controlling the match is more than just controlling momentum. Range in pokes, usefulness of pokes, overall damage per combo, knockdowns etc. are all factors as well.

The reason why like say Ken…is better than Ibuki is the other weakness I was mentioning before. He has really good low options and she does not. Her low options aren’t as bad as say Twelve’s or Oro’s but they’re not as good as Ken’s. Granted Ibuki is just as fast or faster than Ken but that doesn’t matter when he can keep her at a range with low pokes. These low pokes also verify into a super that only needs one small bar to charge and create an easy untechable knockdown for him to gain positional advantage.

Ken has LP dragon punch which is basically an anti Ibuki mind games move. He can whip this out at any time to beat her pokes and the only option Ibuki has against it is to simply hope that she can bait it out at the correct time and punish. Otherwise the first gap he sees he will go for it and you lose all your momentum. Even random SA3 works once in a while to get Ibuki off of you and he gets up to 3 of those as well.

You need knockdowns in order to win matches and generally because Ken simply has better poking options in this matchup he has advantage. Ibuki can definitely poke back at Ken and create trouble for him but he’s going to gain knockdowns a lot easier than she will. All it takes is one low forward or LP DP and Ibuki is going to take a possible beating.

Yun also takes damage badly but the difference is he can touch you and take away half your life bar. Ibuki cant do that. She’ll take away 20-30 percent at most in most situations and raise the stun bar a bit. Yun can turn himself into a near impenetrable wall and if he hits you you’re going to take damage. He can then run away and do this again until the round is over. The other big reason why Yun is so high is because he only needs to charge one small bar to take away half your life and if he doesn’t catch you with it the first time it’s very easy for him to charge it again.

Ibuki’s overall offensive options just aren’t as immediately threating as the higher tiered characters. Her mind games are really good so it’s up to the player to create top tier mind games to push her in tournaments. Unlike Yun, Chun or Ken where you can pretty much do what you’re supposed to do and get wins.

**It’s like watching Hayao play Hugo and beating a bunch of people using top tiers and then saying…“OMG…HUGO does TOO MUCH damage…you get paried and 1/4th life gone…he should be TOPS!!!11”. ** It doesn’t work like that. Hugo has too many things working against him where it requires the Hugo player to work that much harder than everyone else to win.

No matter how tough the battle looks for the top tier player they still are just not under as much stress in the long run as the Hugo player. There’s way more things the Hugo player has to worry about than the Yun/Chun player and for that reason specifically is why he’s not top tier. Granted…Hugo is like bottom barrel as far as tiers go but there are good players in both the US and Japan that are just skilled enough to make him look better than he is.

There’s nothing wrong with that but…those same players just generally lose more often even when they’re playing a good game than someone using a higher tiered characters. There’s no reason to really get defensive about it…it’s simply statistics on a chart. You wanna make your character good…just gotta put your mind to it. Dont worry about tiers…those are statistics. You are you. The tiers are there because those are the characters that on AVERAGE win most often.


#14

What’s up with the neg rep? Anyways, good post Devil Jin, but I still disagree.


#15

At least I have a good post. :lol:

Seriously though…in the end it’s not really that serious. I know Ibuki’s not top tier but I use her because I like her and she fits my play style and I still beat people with her. That’s enough for me. Who cares where she is on a tier list. The list is definitely there for a reason but if Ibuki is top tier then anyone who feels their character is worthy of top tier should also be top tier. It just gets lame after a while and people should just be comfortable with who they like using.


#16

she takes too much damage. her offense is gimmicky/unsafe at times.

those are the main things holding her back for the most part.


#17

she takes to much damage people!!! And doesnt deal enough, a good Q player with taunts wont lose to a good ibuki player simply cause her attacks cant do enough damage

Why isnt hugo top tier? XD


#18

People hating cuz he’s so BIG.


#19

Threads like this pop up alot in this section. I remember a “Why isn’t remy top tier?” Thread.


#20

Meh, people need something to talk about when they have nothing better to do.

Although the Elena one would be kind of funny. Short, but funny.

In a nutshell; “Because she can’t fucking cancel c.MK!”