Why isn't order switching allowed in CvS2?


#1

I don’t get it. It shouldn’t matter which character goes first as long as you’re prepared to beat each one on the other player’s team with any one of yours. Doesn’t anyone agree?


#2

no


#3

Care to explain?


#4

Ideally the better player should be able to win regardless of any circumstance. In reality tournaments are far from ideal, so that really doesn’t matter.

The reason IMO is because of the ‘winner keeps team’ rule, if you can switch order, you now are able to adjust your team after knowledge of your opponents team, which goes against the original reason for keeping teams in the first place. Sure your opponent can switch characters again to counter, but you can see how random this becomes, and detracts a lot from the actual match to do jockeying at the vs screen.


#5

those rules are being reviewed to see if they need to be updated or changed. Stay tuned for more information.


#6

I think it should be allowed first match only. Both players should be able to switch orders since nobody has won or lost yet. But after the first match, winner must pick his team in the order that he switched them the first match, and leave it that way. Loser can still swith them around if he realizes at the last second, he want’s a different character to go first or last.

Jive Out!


#7

So what you’re saying is, rather than leave it to random chance and let skill determine the winner, it’s better for a guy who just lost to be able to pick an EXACT counter team to mine and match each counter up with each of my characters? Yeah, that’s the fairest thing I’ve seen to date.


#8

The point of even playing a second game is so that the loser can pick a counter to the winners characters.

You can’t have it both ways, if your going to not allow counters, make everyone keep the same team and order etc… If you are going to allow counters, then you can’t allow to switch at the vs screen. To implement “loser can change characters” and “winner can switch order” creates totally conflicting rulesets, which is far less fair than conforming one to the other. You can’t just isolate one thing.

**

This would be ideal, but more confusing to players, which is why it’s easier to just not have order switching at all.


#9

How does switching confuse people? I really don’t understand. If I can switch my chars and you can switch your chars where does the confusion come into play? Unless I’m over-estimating your intelligence which i don’t think I am, it should be fairly simple.


#10

people who dont listen or may not be listening at the time might jes hear you can order switch, when in reality only the loser can order switch at the vs screen ( thats if they implemented the rule) which makes it more complicated. your not over estimating his intelligence your over estimating peoples listening/reading skills. Its better to keep it simple


#11

Sigh. I already did a thread about this. It was ignored.

My concern is this. I don’t really care about the rule either way, but why is order switching allowed in MvC2 and banned in CvS2? I can’t think of any compelling reasons why it would be OK in one game and not the other.


#12

Um, because in MVC2 you can switch out in mid game. CVS2 you’re stuck. I think it should be allowed for both personally, but since I probably won’t be going, I’m not concerned.


#13

hmm the only reason I can think of, is that there are some match-ups where one character just owns the other like, like Vega VS Raiden, but thats just another part of the game, so i really dont see the problom in switching charcters

one reason i could see why they would ban switching character, would be just to keep things plain and simple, like the only button u can hit durring the vs screen would be the start button.


#14

That’s a bullshit-reason. In MvsC2, all the best players I see play don’t “normally” switch-out anyway, so it’s not like they can 100% switch out whenever they feel like it. If they simply tagged-out, then the incoming-character would be at HUGE risk of getting their ass-kicked because they’re left-open. That’s mainly the reason why nobody switches-out normally anymore.

But that’s a small reason compared to this:

In CvsS2, this “counter character” stuff still wouldn’t even be an issue if switching WAS allowed. Think about it: This “counter character” crap shouldn’t fucking matter because if both players are switching their line-ups, then either of them won’t know what order they’re in, so nobody knows what character is pitted against which.

…unless some fag is looking at your controller. But I mean come on, fighting-gamers aren’t THAT corny, are they? If that’s the case, I guess you gotta “hide” your buttons. :rolleyes:

Example: If a person see’s Sagat 1st in the other-players line-up, well he/she could move whoever the hell they’d want to “counter” that Sagat, but the other player would also have the ability to switch up who’s 1st and then confuse whoever the hell which-character is pitted against which.

Hell, if you DIDN’T allow the switching of character-order in CvsS2, you’ll come down to people always recommending that “whisper to the judge what team you’re going to pick so that the other player isn’t waiting to see who you choose” stuff.

Just allow switching in both MvsC2 and CvsS2, or DON’T allow switching in both MvsC2 and CvsS2. It only looks weird if you allow only ONE to have switching. People are definitely gonna think “WTF?” towards the other game, and that might make serious-people unhappy.

By the way, I’m not playing in either of these tournies. I just wanted a reason to logically bitch, because I can definitely do that better than I can play Capcom-games nowadays. :bluu:


#15

I think order switching should be allowed. Whatever vs. screen jockeying only lasts about 10 seconds and IMO doesn’t detract at all. Besides, matches are only 1 game now, so counter-order-switching really doesn’t matter anymore until the finals.

A good solution for the finals, or in the event that cvs2 gets changed to 2/3, would be to allow order switching in the first game of the match, but disallow it for every game thereafter.


#16

*I believe…

in order switching for CvS2…

cuz…

it pays to be random sometimes like random supers or random roll supers…

and order switching can even go against you…

it’s also strategy…

and will make it more interesting for random people to hopefully get a chance to win…


#17

Yep, it IS fair. SF has worked this way for years, it’s the volleyball effect (a beats b, c beats a etc, ect.) Opt for double blind pick for the first game, the second game the loser counters, assuming it’s 1-1 after that, the winner of the first match counters with a team of his own. Almost every ST tournament is won/lost based on this principal, look at last years Evo ST finals.

-wes


#18

Strange, I thought it was supposed to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the player who won the first match did not win by some fluke or rare miscalucation on his opponent’s part. This is why Americans don’t like Japanese one-match, single elim style. It provides security for the skilled, a streak of hope (even though there really is no chance) for the unskilled, and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that, 2 games were won consistently by player A, and thus under all circumstances, he was the more skilled player regardless.

The second games is NOT primarily to choose counter characters. That’s just what people do because it’s the easy way out to win. Don’t confuse them.

I think allowing order changing is perfectly fine. It’s said that winner maintains the same team. What is different about the team? Structure? 9 times out of 10, you’re playing your characters the same way regardless of the order. It’s a poor man’s form of counter charactering - the one that CvS2 ALLOWS you to do within the confines of your preselected team. If I play A Bison against your C Blanka the first time and win, but I know that my A Sak will do better against him, why can’t I put her first if you pick C Blanka again? My team is the same. And better yet, you know A Sak does better (theory fighter), so why don’t you fake me out, pick C Blanka first and change him so you might do better the second time against my A Bison. CvS2 allows this. There is a REASON you can order change and not CHARACTER change. Hell, what if I was just lazy and didn’t want to move the cursor to my first character on my team at character select? I do that all the time. I’m a lazy bastard too though so whatever.


#19

**

In part yes… but note that having 2 blind pick matches would also satisfy your requirement, but we know that solution is not acceptable, so your statement cannot be the whole story. IMO the ‘fluke’ you speak of is not a general one, but in this case it addresses specifically picking a specific character/team, this requirement is satisfied by the ‘winner keeps team’ rule while yours isn’t, so that is what i am working with until someone has something better, which leads to the conclusions in my prevois post.

**

This is too general for me, the rules we are discussing does not refer to general user-defined terms like skill, etc… so why would the explanation… the specific issues are # of games, and character selection, but only the latter is being discussed here. There are more reasons for single game, but for the sake of post length i will not go into it here.

**

I apologize if i was confusing, the second game is for a counter to any part of the first game, which includes equipment, characters, play style, etc… That rule is currently all encompassing, so contradicting a section of that rule (characters) would tarnish the whole concept, which is why it cannot be allowed.

Also, it is not ‘easy’ to counter, competition is basically who can out counter their opponent, so if countering is easy, everyone could compete at the same level easily, which of course isn’t true. There’s no shame in using the best tool for the job, i don’t think any player should be afraid to use their best gameplan because of what some player thinks their plan is ‘easy’.

I think this is the common problem, people confuse what they do as a player with what is good for the event. Why should a single example apply for everyone? I speak of the event, and how the rule replies to the players in general, not just yourself. But with that said i’ll go through your reply anyway so you have something to reply to.

**

9 times noone cares anyway, the rules are mostly made for that 1 that becomes the headline on srk the next day. In a sense the rules are made with the exceptions in mind, since that kind of press hurts us all in the end.

**

By that token, very few games are designed with the high level tournament player in mind. We must take certain liberties to create a ‘tournament-friendly’ version. These discussions will decide what specifically the level and extent of those changes are.

**

I don’t play blanka well at all…so it’s very funny you pick that example, as it illustrates my point. What are you REALLY doing at the select screen? You are guessing that my blanka is a counter… basically rolling a die to determine who is countering who. While it is an intresting mini-game, it is basically luck that determines the advantage.

Now we just said that your example is basically a guess. Yet above you say that the same match you described “proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that, 2 games were won consistently by player A, and thus under all circumstances, he was the more skilled player regardless” This is of course untrue, you took a 50/50 guess since you know nothing about me, hardly a definition of ‘all circumstances’. That is why i say the rules you propose contradict themselves.

Given a choice between a imperfect but defined method of playing, and inserting a complete guess before a tournament match, i would choose the former, wouldn’t you?

**

Laziness to that degree should not be the directors concern. Furthermore the reason capcom allows you to order change and not character change is IMO just to remain consistent throughout the series, and does not imply that capcom’s default configuration is made for hgh level tournament play moreso than games with different rules.


#20

Care to elaborate?

Don’t attempt to word your way out of the question. Here’s a better one that you can’t rearrange: What is the purpose of the tournament? Is it not to find the “better” player? Now, answer that without using subjective terms like you’ve just suggested we should ask you. If you don’t have a reasonable answer just say “I don’t know.”

Okay, if that’s what you want to believe feel free. If what you speak is true then all games would go to the third match and the winner of the first would be the winner of the overall.

Kinda like you just did? How can you say that Mummy’s points don’t apply because they are exceptions and then turn around and say that the rules you have are okay because they address exceptions? Really, you’re just looking silly now. Quit dancing around the man’s questions and answer them.

It’s funny that you use the term “choice” since your rule is actually prohibiting players from choosing. Yes, you’ve said the rules contradict themselves, but you haven’t shown HOW. Nothing in that premeditated scripture you’ve been saving actually shows how your method is better or how something is fundamentally wrong with the proposed one. Once again, you expect money, stop dancing around the questions paying people are asking. You’re making general statements with no hard facts or conclusions. Answer the man.

And the same could be said for your method. The difference between the two? Capcom isn’t putting restrictions on what you can do in their game once you’ve paid to play it. Change the rules. Or don’t. Whatever you feel like doing is what will happen anyway. In either case, this bullshit excuse for an answer should NOT be allowed to fly.