Why Remy is not Top Tier

So I just can’t get over this tournament me and my buds had last saturday. I came in determined to use Remy every match, just to show those Ken using bastards what it’s all about.

I was doing okay, and was going into finals against the top three and had to fight for the fourth spot to continue on. For some reason, I used Yang, my opponent had Ryu. Was a good match, though I freaked out and did his SAI too early a few times where I wanted to catch him out of the air. Anyway, lost that, so I got fifth. But that’s not what troubles me so much.

On my way up the ladder, I totally ass raped some noobs using Ryu/Ken with Remy. I was up against this annoying fat dude who just pokes all day when up close. So yeah, I back up, and take my game to sweep range. Both matches I have him down to a few pixels of health left, and both matches he somehow sneaks a SAII into my face, removing about half of Remy’s life, utterly and completely destroying him. This made so friggin mad, especially since I had worked so hard to get where I was at during the whole match, then having had half my life bar depleted with one super. Pure retardedness.

So it’s quite frusterating to go around Remy’s major problems as a character.

A. His stamina is too low. This is my main complaint. It should be one notch higher. It just doesn’t make any sense, since it’s so difficult to get an advantage on your opponent, but so easy for them to make a come back.

B. His stun bar is too low. This becomes a problem against Alex mostly, but this too needs to be at least one notch higher. Of course you’re not going to want to take the pain when playing as Remy, but for some characters, it’s too easy to get in and land hard attacks on Remy. This contradicts Remy with his INability to clearly and easily land normals. Go figure.

C. Lack of range on normals. The only somewhat usable normal he has that has range is st. mk. And that in itself will almost always infer a block/parry from the opponent. Low mk is NOT safe, as I had demonstrated myself against a fully stocked and loaded Chun (among others), even when it connects (!). Low hk is HORRIBLE and should never be used. All Remy is left with is st. mp, which becomes useless immediately since almost every fighter can crouch right under it and it’s main use is as early anti-air. Other useless normals include st. hp and st. hk. His priority and poking ability only applies to his mp and lp. Mk is God in air, as is mp, though this doesn’t save him since the damage on both is not so great, and Ken/Ryu/Akuma still have God kick, AKA jumping hk.

It’s just goddamn frusterating. It’s not safe to throw out mp against shotos, since their low mk has more range and already excellent priority, and even a sweep can throw you out of that.

The only thing they got right with Remy is his damage. He can dish it out, and I demonstrated it well during the tournament, but mostly against the noobs who got stuck in the corner and kept falling for the launcher when they jumped to eat a three hit devastate-a-thon combo.

So, what do you guys think? In my humble opinion, if Remy had the stamina, stun bar and range to back up his damage potential, he’d be one of the top contenders. Since the former three are dominant traits among the top tier characters (Ken, Chun, Yun, and to a lesser extent, Urien, Makoto, Dudley).

I apologize to any that may think I am complaining in anyway, but I felt I had to vent my frusteration. And I know many of you may think “Well, you’re obviously not good enough! Get better!”, but believe me, my opponents won the matches fair and square. I wouldn’t have been so frusterated if I had felt ripped off in anyway, but the top four/three played a good game (my brother was using Alex … the bastard … !).

Thanks for those who are willing to offer any input/those who agree with me. If you disagree, please offer your answer as to why.

I am a Remy player too… i just have to say this character is pretty hopeless… his normal moves are slow like hell and if i am correct, if u land a cr.mk on ken and ken eats it, he can still reversal it by SA3. Wat a bs…
when i use remy i always keep distance of 1/2 screen away, and do ups and lows sonic booms… always do charge partitioning to give urself one more choice on defending, like sonic boom>sommersault kick/other normal moves/super/let him land and throw him… u name it. Waiting is so important for remy, coz he’s not designed as an attacking character.
U guys have any other opinions?

I would say his attacking is strong when effective and successful, but he’s too easily knocked back and can’t take any chances since his stamina is so low! He doesn’t have any options as far as air to air encounters are concerned, either swat them out with a mk/mp or pray to God that hp lands and finish it off with a rrf.

His pressure is alright. He can continue the momentum with poke strings, cr. lp, cr. mp, then UOH xx SAI OR kara-throw. Again though, one attack knocks back alot of work. Random dragon punchs are murder, especially since it easily beats cbk (which becomes useless against opponents with knowledge of this!). Beyond EX rrf, wake up is weak.

His mid boom game can only go on for so long as the opponent parries/closes in.

I still can’t get by how basically, his only option for ground poke is low mp. Shameful!

What is realy anoying is that characters like Makoto even if u poke them they can do a quick dash or do that kara thingy to grab u.

Anyway i Remy haved more stamina, stunt bar abd more power? Maybe he could be middle tier maybe at the end of the top tiers. But for that too happen his SA 3 should be better. Maybe more effective pokes should be needed.

Yeah I agree with u that is annoying that Ryu with SA2 can take almost kill u,Makoto SA 2, Yun SA3 BS, Urien SA3 crap and Chunli SA2(how could I forget).

How I deal with Yun trowing Lov hi and low and doing a lot of charge partion. For some unknow reason it becomes one of the easieste macthes for me. Same thing with Urien if u dictate ur pace since he dosent have good options when close.Ryu is ok. My hardest macth ups comes against Chunli and Makoto they can nolify ur spacing very good even so Makoto players falls more for reversals than a Chunli player.

It’s not Remy’s fault

It’s about matchups, not tiers. Remy has got an about even matchup with probably a slight advantage vs the Shotos, with Akuma having most problems against him because you can EX RRF through the Air Fireball. There’s no reason to stay up close against Ken if he just sits there. Keep him away with Jab loVs, and when he tries to chase you, it’s time to use some surprise CBKs/ EX LoVs.
In general, if you think Remy is to bad to compete, there’s nothing holding you back from switching to another character, unless you absolutely want to play only him.You used Yang in the tournament anyway. I know it’s annoying trying to learn Remy. I set myself the choice to really go in-depth on the character design and either prove that people are underestimating him, or stopping to play 3S. So far it’s working out great. You just need patience.

There’s no doubt I will continue to use Remy as my main attacker, but like most people, I like to mix it up with other characters I enjoy playing. The key word is enjoy. I usually refrain from Ken/Ryu/Chun since I find them to be pretty boring. Yang/Remy/Q offer some unique flavor. Though Q is ALWAYS casual play. I would never use him in a tournament. I just want to use Remy because everytime I play him against anyone and I lose, I always feel I could have done this and that and would have won instead. With some characters (such as Q), I feel cheated, and that I don’t stand a fair chance. Again, with Remy, I get the feeling that at one point or another I will be able to dominate just about anyone.

You also said in your header that it’s not his fault. But some aspects of his gameplay are due to his design fault. The really shoddy normals are his fault. His lack of good variable pokes are too. His crap stamina and stun as well. The player skill can only take one so far when you’re up against some really good players with decidedly powerful characters.

Against Shotos, I would say that he does alright, as you mentioned. I don’t believe he has any real advantages. He can control the fight quite well, but whenever those damn brothers land any normals, chunky chunk of life bar goes bye bye. I would say Akuma is his easiest and toughest match of the three “brothers”. If Akuma gets in and just becomes psychic, it’s the match from hell. But keeping Akuma at bay and tossing out mad damage can end it quickly too.

You seem to have deviated from my initial point; I was listing why Remy just isn’t considered top tier but I appreciate your input.

  • stamina slightly too low
  • stun bar being slightly too low
  • lack of speedy and useful normals/pokes.

Tossing out cr. mp all day gets predictable. You most certainly can mix it up, but when you’re on the ground again, it’s most certainly mp that’s coming out, again.

*Anyway i Remy haved more stamina, stunt bar abd more power? *

I don’t think Remy should have more power. And I don’t think his current power puts him where he is tier wise. I think he’s pretty damn powerful, and he has excellent damage potential. Certainly not Makoto level, but for the character that he is, the damage he deals is fair, unlike Chun, who deals too much damage for the type of character she is.

Anyway, that was my argument - the things that places Remy mid tier.

You just need patience.

Well said. I always get the feeling that when I’m doing bad in a match or I lose, that I was rushing and making mistakes. Such as taking risks with jump in normals. This happens more often during casual play, perhaps if I gave it my all even during casual play, I could train myself to nerves of steal. I can barely wait for Saturday, lol. “Alright guys, it’s time Remy raped your scrub asses!!! … !!!”

PS - Sagat vs. Athena is just unfair :xeye:

Viva Remy!!!

Remy is the unsung shiznit!..y’all keep at him…Remy’s most valuable asset is his technique (your technique)…so exploit the hell out of his his range and partition at all times, while keeping mind that that’s exactly what is expected of a high level Remy player!..REPRESENT REMY 3S NATION! -Drunken Remy

Stamina- yeah. That’s why you need to set up the opponent and keep them where they can’t damage Remy easily.

Stun Bar- No. If you watch High Level Remy Match Vids, how often do you see him getting stunned? It’s rare, rare, rare.
On a beginner level it’s common though. Remy has low stamina, so if he gets rushed down , he’ll be killed before he’s stunned anyway. And one thing loads of players overlook: Remy’s Stun Bar recovers as quickly as Hugo’s and Urien’s. It’s obvious how short the bar is, but it recovers so quickly, that paired with his incredibly solid defense he won’t get stunned very often.

Speedy/Useful Pokes-

Remy hasn’t got an all-solution poke like Shoto/Chun-Li c.forward, but he’s got one for every situation.

s.short- It’s like the best s.short in the game. Crazy range for a s.short, high priority, fast, links to SAII.

c.strong- long range, cancellable, good priority. Beats out
Shoto UOHs too.

s.strong- Not really a poke that much, but excellent Anti-Air.
still good vs. Hugo. Btw, some random knowledge- It
beats out Chun’s Super :stuck_out_tongue: So if Remy has no health, and you know that Chun wants to chip him down, you
might want to do that.

s.forward- Good to keep the opponent out.

c.forward- It has got a lot of recovery, but it’s still useful against Alex, Hugo, Oro, Urien. Against other characters, you can sometimes still sneak it in when they don’t expect it, so that they won’t reversal. Just watch some Remy match vids of Yokoyama/ Pierrot/ Ryo-Chin .

s.fierce- It’s good to end poke strings with, because it can only be parried high, and it’s a fierce so it builds a lot of meter which makes it easier to keep the opponent where you want to have them.

s.roundhouse- vs Hugo. He can’t crouch it. It’s also good against Dudley I heard, but I haven’t played around with that so far.

Short CBK- Extremly useful. Whiff s.shorts, go into crouch and all to fake it, so it stays ambiguous. Builds loads of meter, frame advantage from the right distance,
Karathrow setup, and stops the opponent from dashing in just like that. Also Throw defense, because it makes Remy airborne.

Anti-Rushdown: EX Forward+ rh LoV. Awesome. Will make people think even more about just dashing in.

It think of Remy’s pokes more as like those which Dhalsim has.
There is no all-purpose one, but if you make them work together with the projectiles, you can set up opponents if you know what
your doing. Playing Remy can really feel nice. At first when I used him it was like “omg! he’s gonna rushdown…low stamina…ahhhh”, now it’s more " Ha! You can’t even begin to penetrate my defense!"

  • T7

Hm, yup I agree that Remy does indeed have all purpose normals. But I think they’re risky and very prone to getting parried, key being that most of them are not as safe as I’d like.

So basically you guys think Remy stands a chance against all players (pretty much), because you haven’t mentioned much about tiers. Though I’ve yet to see any first place Remys in any important tournaments or what not. Top player vids in the first place as hard to come by (though I am interested).

If the tournament thing happens this Saturday, I’ll keep you guys posted :tup:

remy has alot going for him he just lacks because he’s such a meter whore. he needs meter to fight and without it he has no real way of landing damage outside of anti air. if he had more meter built from whiffing normals or 3 stock bars for sa1 he would easily be top tier or at least high mid tier.

also about normals being parried- that’s when u start using one of his pretty good kara throws. either strong kara or roundhouse.

if u feel u get countered every time u throw a lov and dash behind it try throwing one and WATCH WHAT THEY DO. alot of time whiffing st strongs and chucking LOV’s is spent gathering information from the other player’s response to the LOV.

if u throw a LOV and suddenly the opponent doesnt know if your going to rrf after it, dash after or stop short or throw while they parry, hit low/high and u have a meter stocked then suddenly U R NOW WINNING. u need a controlled randomness to play remy, and that can be played off of one thrown LOV.

ur missing the point man. saying so and so isn’t good cause it’s too risky. urien’s tackle xx aegis from half screen just to get it goin is risky, but ppl still do it. nething is risky if ur scared of everything. maybe u should discover remy, instead of bitching at him. pro tip: rh flash kick is the only version that does full damage no matter how it hits.

It’s all about adapting to what people do when you throw light of vitures.

Oh well this has basically turned into a “You’re not using Remy right” thread, but that’s okay because I’m always for upping my game.

I did a little more casual play (didn’t go the tournament this saturday, had to work grumble)

Anyway, I’ve incorporated random normals into my game, both for surprising the opponent and for building meter on the spot (even though Remy builds meter fast as hell as it is).

Basically, what I have down pat are (and what works well) —

  • cr. lk xx SAI
  • air HP, RRF
  • various combos (cr. mp xx lov xx SAI)
  • EX RRF on wakeup (when opponent is attacking)
  • uoh, SAI

Being rushed down is still just a bit too much. What I tried in my last few matches (and how well it worked).

  • poking random lk: Stuffed a HUGE amount of my opponents’ attacks. Most notably was one Alex player who had like 70% of his attacks stuffed. I’ll keep this one.
  • poking st. mp up close: stuffed various jump attacks early. Got hit low a few times doing this, but it seems the opponents’ basic instinct is to jump when Remy gets close. About 70% effective (ate some cr. hards … : /).
  • EX High LOV as anti-air. Quite effective. No one parried it. The timing threw me off sometimes though, and it would go past them. Gotta work on this, but overall it’s quite effective.

Things I should do more often:

  • lov game (ie: react to the opponent). For some reason, I just can’t bring myself to stand at the other end of the screen and toss lov all day and only come up as the opponent is tackling an incoming lov. There’s too much guesswork, and I had a frequent occurence of both oncoming attacks getting parried (the lov and anything I threw out). I abandoned this strategy when it was costing me my game.
  • air mk as anti-air. Pretty unbeatable. I would just forget to use it often, trying for the HP, then the RRF (was getting greedy).
  • Kara-throw. I don’t think I did it once o_o Just plain out forgot.

Things I don’t think I’ll ever do (again):

  • cr. HP. Suicide. 100% always parried. Beginner players still fell for it, but who cares? That means that the three hit devastate-a-thon combo = useless (for the most part).
  • st. MK. Got parried often. Too much time for retaliation on the opponents’ part. Stuffed a few attacks, but wasn’t worth the effort. I might work on this, but for stuffing attacks, lk just beats anything out.

Other stuff:

  • I noticed opponents would freak out when in the corner, which gave me tons of chances for free hits and combos. Most successive was just standing beside their body as they got up, then parrying low, then throwing. I’d get hit high a few times, but 70% of the time, I would parry a low attack, then throw them or just tech their throw attempt. The neutral throw would be followed up with a RRF. The only problem I encountered with this was Ken players with the HP/EX Dragon Punch. Luckily, sometimes I could react and keep low or block without throwing, but I ate it a few times (with the throw attempt).
  • Still had a couple Alex players stun me. I still hold by what I said, since Alex’s jumping HK is just too good. Parrying against Alex on the ground was also not an option, what with his command grab and back + HP “grab”.

That is all. Thanks for all who contributed and for believing in Remy, heh. I do feel he definitely has a chance, but just needs to work a little harder than most.

one thing that might work is random cr HP when your opponent is cornered, like do tick set ups like cr short -> throw, or st jab, short -> throw.

u can replace your kara throw with a step in and cr hp sometimes and it’ll trade with alot or hit ppl who tried to tech your throw.

this works because of the limited range on cr HP. sure it migt not hit but think about it if it does u get a free wall juggle. plus the opponent has to be ontop of u… if they block it it’ll push u back far enough to not be supered or thrown so its ok for that. it’s a slow move on start up like alot of remy’s pokes.

st HP is good as well. the way it works is different from alot of far reaching mid level HP because of its slow start up. to compensate for this use this move OUT OF RANGE. that means just be out of range enough so that if an opponent crouched and swept u the fierce would barely hit. this really spreads out remy’s range game. this of course is mixed up with standing forward, cr strong, and very rarily crouching forward with LOV mix up and dashing for repositioning.

with remy i think its important to be across screen and out of the opponents face as much as possible whiffing strong to build bar. it doesnt really matter if they parry the LOV’S as u throw them because u r still gaining meter for the strong whiff plus your slowing them down from gaining meter since parrying in 3s doesnt give u as much meter as whiffing a normal. so dont be discouraged if u get your LOV’s parried across the screen u just whiffed 3 strongs.

another point is position to be across screen. with remy i think its ALSO important to hold down the ground infront u with a very hazing line of out of reach and in range positions (a very wide footsie game). this expands the area that remy controls extremely through strong LOV, back dash and forward dash. another point of this is to never be in a neutral position for too long because that lets the opponent have an opportunity to jump in. with random back and forward dashes out of there good normal range with thrown LOV’s it really halts alot of opponents from grounding an assualt through coming in dashing or jumping plus stops turtlers from chilling back and whiffing normals for meter.

Remy is an advanced character for an advanced player. 3rd Strike is balanced enough to where tier doesn’t mean shit. He takes alot of damage and he’s hard to use, which forces a player to not make mistakes and use every tool he has (which he has alot if you really learn him). I use Twelve and Remy almost exclusively and I have not met a Ken I couldn’t stand toe to toe with.

Chun-li, well thats another story lol.

  • The fact that cr. characters get advantages vs remys st. attacks kinda suck

  • That cr. mk is bullshit. It should be linkable. I don’t think its fair… st. Mk should be an overhead. since your knee goes right into their face.

  • …although low LOV is a better choice. as a surprise, and the recovery barely exists.

  • SAII vs. Chun li SAII, and Ken’s SAIII the damage is not equeal. Seriously remy’s saII does about 30% damage compared to chuns 45% plus 2 xtra sjc hits afterwards.

  • I am still hopeing to see some amazing Remy player who can use SAIII like a god. If your parry is that good. I really think that SAII is more useful then people think. I just wish that the super would do the activation confirmation after the opponent attacks, so it isn’t so damn obvious with the SApause. Which makes the super half a guess and less a bait.

  • Remy has some juggles, but they are not as free flowing as say, Yun, Urien, Necro’s. I still think that saIII yun shit is just ‘broken’ especially when the saIII is over and you can still do like 3 hits on a character that in all honesty should have dropped by now.

  • It would have been nice if his j.RH actually crossed up on all characters, all of the time. Instead of the rather ackward requirements versus certain characters under certian conditions.

  • I wish SAI had low and high variations of the supper. Cause have you ever seen someone parry SA1, it only takes 3 parrys and it brings you right next to remy. high/low parry variation would have been nice.

I’ll still play him, most of the other characters don’t do it for me anymore. I still think a good remy player is a better player then any ken and chun anyday. So at least we get plenty of recognition for beating advantaged characters down. Which feels alright.

I think Remy is a fine character for the most part. If I were to make any changes, though, the only things I would change would be

  • LoVs should always build a little meter even if they’re whiffed

  • jab/short lov should be a little slower, fierce/roundhouse should be a little faster

  • stun bar should be a little bit longer

  • SAIII should do a very damaging one-hit attack against both air and ground attacks

yea i agree with sa3, it could have just been the kick he does before he does the final RRF in it. heck just make the damage on the one hit do sean sa1 damage but let him juggle the opponent to build meter afterwards.

for lov timings i wouldnt mess with those because his normal throw set ups give u enough time to lov them as they get up tightly.

use FK to your advantage. it’s fairly easy to do. do pokes like a maniac. if an opponent is too agressive and too fast, then fk like a whore. if an opponent is too defensive, throw SBs like an SOB. if he parries like a bitch, grab that bitch! try not to be too repetitive. be spontaneous but make sure wether you hit or miss you won’t eat that much damage.remy is not top tier but goddamn there’s no way i’m quitting on him

what do you mean?

remy’s NOT top tier?

im pretty sure its just that i suck.