Why use ultra 2?

gen

#1

I’ve been trying to find information about Gen’s ultra 2, particularly in Mantis style. I can see how Crane style ultra 2 can be useful in some tricky situations, but comparing Mantis ultra 2 to Mantis ultra 1 it seems pretty obvious which one is the better choice. Or perhaps… there is something I am missing.

Mantis ultra 2 is difficult to combo into, has only a short range of an arms length or so, and it’s not unblockable. It also does grey damage and doesn’t quite kill the opponent (or does it?), giving them time to recover as well. Can someone enlighten me on this? Is it really a weak ultra or I’m not thinking hard enough?


#2

Mantis U2 is awful, though not useless. If you are comparing m.U2 to m.U1 the only thing going for m.U2 (and even this is a bit of a stretch) is the fact that it is a double quarter-circle back motion instead of toward, so if you choose to do it outside of a combo or a punish you are a little bit safer while imputing the motion than you would have been with m.U1.

The reasons to take m.U2 are: because it comes with Crane U2, because you feel like it, or because you are stubborn. M.U2 loses to m.U1 in every way in a direct comparison. That said, if you have m.U2 anyway remember it does have some decent invulnerable frames during its start-up so it can sometimes catch an opponent while they are doing something that should have been safe.

Grey damage can kill an opponent, it is just less likely to. See here:
http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Game_Systems/White_Damage
for a better explanation than I could succinctly type.

Also, some opponents will start to play defensive and frightened when they suddenly have a large amount of grey damage. Still probably better to have done normal damage to them with m.U1 though.


#3

The only reason I see is against fireball characters to prevent them from freely spamming hadoukens since you can tiger knee the crane U2. To be honest I don’t even use it for that either, U1 is so much better. Mantis U2 is just a weak excuse for an ultra compared to mantis U1 imo. Mantis U1 is amazing, since it is also an amazing punish for a lot of match-ups. Balrog keeps dashpunching you? Dat mantis U1! Bison keeps doing devil reverse? Dat mantis U1!

Actual damage> grey damage which you will *hopefully *hit again before it regenerates again.


#4

So it seems I am right to assume that ultra 2 is pretty much useless. For what it is worth I think it would’ve been better to give it a throw-ultra property like Zangief’s ultra 1, but then the range would need to be nerfed a bit.


#5

The advantage mantis U2 has over mantis U1 is that mantis U2 is relatively safe on block. Situation that this could be useful is to mash it out during block strings and hope your opponent drop a link. If they really do drop a link they will eat the ultra. If they are baiting your mash you still have a sliver of fighting chance for a comeback if its blocked. I’m sure you know the pains of having your ass exposed after a blocked mantis ultra by now…
And yes, I am still mashing out ultras like a scrub and I’m not afraid to admit it! :smiley:

Regards
Gecko


#6

No reason to use it ever. I used to think C. U2 was good against some characters like C.viper, and it kind of is… but its a cheesy setup that people catch on real quick like. And besides that, lots of C.vipers like to go flying all day after seismo’s… what people don’t understand, or at least I rarely see it, is if you watch for that super jump, unless they do whatever flame kick it is that makes them go back, thats basically a free crane U1.

If I’m fighting a c.viper its almost guarantee’d I’ll get an air ultra or super off. They always jump, and even of they don’t jump they’ll do random flame kicks all day and thats a super from me if its just a ground flame, and ultra if they jump. Though, I’ve been known to have good reactions so thats pretty normal for me, I frequently get almost anyone when they’re jumping too much, in fact sometimes I purposely stop doing any AA’s to get them to jump at me more. It’s a bit risky depending on the character but if I’m confident I can block their mixup it typically leads to me getting crane U1 off.


#7

“U1 is better in every way”

Not true. You can combo into U2 from 1 bar, it sets up perfect spacing and timing for cross up oga and has a faster startup. It catches Balrog dash punches and pulls the twins dive kicks out of the sky, saying U1 catches dash punches is therefore neither here nor there. Mantis U2 is not really safer on block its at least -9 and leaves you within range for punishes of about that startup.

Idk but you can probably counterhit into mantis U2 from (m)5mp (not tested this but it might work) making us have a useful counterhit combo outside of (m)5mp > sweep.

It can kill the opponent if they have less than half of the grey damage in health left.

“No reason to use it ever”

Stocked U2 makes people think twice about anti-airing you, makes the twins stop throwing full screen palms to build meter and a fair lot more. It’s the ultra that is situational in use, it is to punish their mistakes (crane) and one that is easy as hell to combo into for the least meter (mantis).

Its not the strongest of ultras but it is far from useless. Especially in those 4 or 5 matches its the better option in.


#8

I’m conflicted on comboing into mantis U2 though (and I don’t mean on counter hit because that’s pretty clever if it works). M.U2 gets burned twice by hit scaling because not only are you doing less grey damage you’re also getting less time to try to capitalize on it (obviously this doesn’t apply if the ultra was fatal).

There have been a number of times I’ve gone (something), Mantis super, m.U2, seen a veritable sliver of grey damage, and two seconds later wished I’d gone for guaranteed damage and kept the threat of ultra stocked.


#9

I meant off things like mk xx ex.hands where it will do good damage, but yeah, that is another downside.


#10

Its still cheeseball damage… If the opponent has a good defense, there’s still a chance you just did an ultra for nothing. Guaranteed damage > grey damage.


#11

you’re missing another bit, guaranteed damage > grey damage > no damage. The threat of it is enough for most to play runaway, which is fine by me. Even if grey damage results in no damage.


#12

I think Mantis U2 is a great choice against the shoto cast. Uses I found:

If they fireball you for chip on wakeup at mid range, their hitbox extends to their hands as they fire it, and you can ultra this on standup and catch them from good distance.

If the opponent has an ultra that travels, and a few other tricky character ultras too, then U2 sometimes trades less with them. Balrog.

Your opponent has less frame advantage to punish U2. You mess it up, you may get out without a servere punish, but a wiffed U1 can get you killed from quarter health.

Gen is an amazing character when it comes to multiple striking options on a character just standing up. He has ways to hit high, low, standing overhead, standing underhand that starts up similar to overhead, ambiguous crossovers, empty jumpovers into grabs, simple walkup grabs disguised as a overhead, frame traps, pressure them until you chip.

The timing is way more strict, but you can still catch plenty a foe with the full ultra if timed properly on a jump-in (trip-guard), juggle (super will link to it), and even a lot of jabs that are just thrown out (not that I support people trying to catch jabs with ultras on standup).


#13

Honestly I love U2, for the following resons

  1. Faster startup: The mantis Ultra 2 starts up in 9 frames (including still frame) while the other mantis ultra starts up in 11 frames
  2. To punish hadoken spammers: crane ultra is good at punishing hadoken throwers and also some baited moves
  3. Time for mental recovery: In a heated battle anytime you have to cool down is essential that is why I normally end my combos with gekiro, and mantis U2 has
    plenty animation and takes longer than U1 I have more time to plan my next sets of attack.
  4. More Damage: if you hit Oga>Super > Mantis Ultra 1 = 681 Damage but Oga>Super > Mantis Ultra 2 = 711 damage
  5. Crane Ultra 2 although is slow and trades like a bitch is still better than crane U1, when I have gen I have Super for easy hitconfirm combo, crane super for jump ins (it will pull the sun out of the sky) Teiga for Hadoken and Shiketensu (or whateve Mantis ultra 2 is called) for much needed time wasting lol!

so thats my personal preferences but all said against Akuma I chose Ultra 1 because of the back jump airfireball spammers, and also against zangief, because I will be nuts to use U2 when he can blow me out of them.


#14

I will contend that U2 is MOSTLY useless, but can be good in several specific situations. Specific situation number one: playing against Guile. Now your Crane U2 will put the fear of god into Guile and allow you to retardedly jump in on him. Seriously, I find it surprisingly effective. Specific situation number two: when being a total asshole and taunting your opponent.

But honestly it’s not as terrible as I often make it out to be, some fairly legitimate reasons to use it have come up in this thread. (I’d still recommend disregarding any suggestion that involves Mantis version though, I really feel that it’s a waste of Ultra in any serious situation.) I know the timing is a bit strict (and by a bit I mean virtually impossible), but Mantis U1 can be used as a fireball punish as well, for guaranteed damage. So if you can find a way to incorporate it into your own specific play style, more power to you, hope it works out. The nice thing is that you’re making a fairly unique decision, and it’s nice to have some randomness on your side. All in all however, I personally recommend against ever using U2 outside of a strictly casual setting. The U1s are just too good to pass on, and I still can’t think of any Ultra in the game that’s worse than Gen’s U2. (My criteria for this is how rewarding the Ultra may be, and how situational it is to use. Cammy’s CQC is, I feel, the next worst.)


#15

Mantis U1 has too much punish potential in a lot of match-ups for me to even begin tinking of switching Ultras. The fact it can limit what your opponent can do in many ways (akuma airfireball, Chun-li overhead kick etc.) makes it invaluable for any serious Gen imo. Crane U1 is pretty solid aswell on a large portion of the cast due to its use as a safejump (forward throw> dashx2> OS crane j.hp/U1) OS that can beat a lot of reversal options and backdashes characters do. And ofcourse the odd time you land any hit of the shakudan j.hk in the air you can combo into it. I never felt like I really needed U2…not even against fireball characters. Maybe I’m oldfashioned, but I need my crane u1 OS and mantis U1 punishes…they seems much more important.


#16

I have to agree with you guys, I think its more of personal taste than effectiveness, and besides Ultra 2 is for Yomi masters. which I am not. yet…