“Notable Move Classes” group in character descriptions should maybe include a reversal field to quickly list things that are invincible on startup and a field that lists the fastest active move the character has (with hitbox pointing to the front, ie. not Sim’s jab).
So basically listing invincible moves and all 3 frames moves? Or 4 frame moves if they don’t have 3 frame moves?
A field that lists invincible moves that the character has.
A field that lists the fastest move the character has. (With Sim listed as 4f because the jab’s first active doesn’t hit front, can’t be used to break pressure like a 3f move can)
That is a bit excessive, the new wiki will have PLENTY of details including information on what is invincible for how long. No need to separate them, especially since not every character even has an invincible move. The separation on main character bio at top of page will list crush counter moves which everyone has, it will also state the length of the characters v-meter. Separating fastest moves means needing to either change the entire order of the wiki which would make the rest of the wiki look weird. Creating an entire additional new table for just 3-4 moves which would just be silly, especially since the new tables are going to be HUGE for some characters due to v-trigger changes so much stuff for several and that requires practically doubling the length of the frame data tables.
The new wiki will look very similar to the SF4 wiki. I’m (very slowly) starting to work on getting the info gilley did not as well as testing some stuff and trying to figure out the deeper mechanics.
Not everyone even has a move with full invincibility from first frame that lasts until move is active outside of super, several don’t actually. Nash doesn’t even have a move with armor. Do we put a section “Critical Art: Yes”? In addition the invincible move doesn’t tell you anything really, is it invincible for 1F? 5F? Does a move that is invincible to strikes but not throws matter? How do you view Mika’s V-trigger? It doesn’t hit till much later, but she has 1F of invincibility, if you meaty her you’ll get a counterhit as though you beat her startup, however Nadeshiko still falls even if you hit her on the frame right after she activates. Does that count as a reversal? You beat her during startup but the attack still connects and it technically has invincibility. Do I list Dhalsim’s teleport? Do I list V-reversals? These have invincibility and are performed as reversals but they fall under different rules, v-reversals only work under specific circumstances and are vulnerable to throws but they are reversals.
Can you provide a reason that we need a fastest move list? There is literally two possible numbers if we only count normals. Every single character has either a 3F or a 4F move. Can you provide a compelling argument why to include it? Do I need to list EVERY move that has that count or just list the frame number? If I need to list every move do I include Vega’s flying barcelona slice with claw? That’s 3F. So is Bison’s jLK. Do I only include grounded normals? Well then Ken only has 4F moves, but his LP SRK and LK Tatsu are 3F. Do we say that Zangief’s fastest move is 1F because it’s his CA even though that doesn’t come up every round? What about moves with variable startups based on range? Once Gief is in range for his siberian express it has zero startup, it does however have a minimum startup of 15~30. What about Nash’s sonic move, that’s only 1F, but it’s not a move that can cause damage on it’s own.
When I say “low attack” there is a distinct answer “these attacks hit low” even if it’s a followup I just say the name of the followup. Senha kusabi for Karin’s slide followup for instance. There is no question, either an attack hits low or it doesn’t. Crush counters are the only ones with potential issues and that is ONLY for Ryu/Karin’s crHP and even then they are still CCH moves just only for first frame.
We are already considering removing hard knockdowns because they are so rare.
I’m willing to listen to your potential arguments but I have a lot of good counter points as you can see.
The game is heavy on upclose pressure - whether the fastest forward-facing button a character has is 3 or 4f is huge, as is having a meterless reversal or not. Try to defend as Nash, try to defend as Cammy. It’s night and day what you have to respect, what you can challenge on defense. If that block is to list notable kinds of moves that are still kind of universal, I’d say basic defensive parameters are that.
I don’t mean any random move, my bad on not clarifying properly. I mean grounded normals: The point is to list the two key parameters of a character’s ability to “break serve”, so to speak.
In retrospect I do agree with not listing the super there, just if there’s a special / EX special that can act as a true invincible reversal. The lack of one is very important information, IMO.
Nash: None, 4f
Chun: EX SBK, 3f
Cammy: MK Spike, 3f
Ken: SRK, 4f