Yet another stick vs pad question


#1

I should start off by saying I’m not asking “what are the merits of buying a stick?” or related questions. There are plenty of other threads on that, but said threads don’t address what I’m trying to find out.

The best way to describe my question is if there is an input speed cap on a PS3 SIXAXIS pad? I don’t mean because of lack of execution, but because the pad literally cannot process the inputs at the necessary speed. An example would be comparing it to a keyboard that locks out when a certain number of keys are pressed at the same time(or nearly so.)

I would like to get a stick one day(actually considering a Hitbox) but that kind of money is already spoken for, and for a great while at that. However even after weeks of living in the lab with Chun-Li, I’m starting to wonder if I’m biting off more than I can chew, or if the pad itself cannot keep up with what I need it to do. While input display is showing that I’m atleast hitting the right buttons, they’re tight links and input data doesn’t have a frame count next to it, hence my curiosity.

Thanks for your time.


#2

This is not really a stick vs. pad question, it’s a question about the capabilities of the SIXAXIS PCB. I have a SIXAXIS in one of my joysticks.

Nope, there are no issues with the SIXAXIS like you are describing. No input delay or any other weird issues that would prevent anyone from hitting links, though personally I find it hard to plink on a pad.


#3

You can check input lag on your TV also. Or borrow a arcade stick from a friend and test out the speed if thats available to you. I used a Sixaxis ps3 controller for awhile, then made a custom stick. It may be in my mind, but the stick just felt faster and more responsive. It was a wired stick though, not sixaxis.


#4

Agreed.

The lag cause by wireless (at least current gen wireless tech) myth been debunked.
There the current stock Sony Six Axis/ Dual Shock 3, MS Xbox 360 Wireless controller or the Nintendo Wii Remote causes any lag.
This is also true for certain 3rd party controller makers

I think its the lack of execution more than the limitations of the PCB of the controller.


#5

I keep my controller wired, and I know there’s probably a little display lag on my TV. I don’t have godlike execution(which is why I’m trying to learn this shit), but I’d just like to confirm whether or not I’m biting off more than I can chew.


#6

I am assuming you are new to a stick. Going from pad to stick is like learning how to ride a bike. It takes practice, and all of falling down till you get used to it.


#7

No like I said in the OP I don’t own a stick yet, I’d like to get one, but for now it’d be the same as spending other people’s money. The things I’m trying to learn regardless of pad/stick are high execution, and I’m wondering if due to any possible hardware limitations if I should even bother until I’m able to buy a stick. I’m a firm believer in execution is just practice, but if I can’t do what I want because of hardware limitations instead of insufficient practice, then I’ll move on to other things.


#8

A stick has a better layout for fighting games because of the 8 button layout. On top of that, you use your finger tips, not your thumbs to press the buttons down. You can do this faster with the natural layout of your fingers that a stick panel will allow you. Plus, you can do things easier like Punch x 3 vs on a pad, or piano-ing, it’s pretty much impossible to do at the same time accurately. The d-pad on the new Sony controllers is actually textured, which makes moving your thumb across it for fast inputs abrasive to your thumb, and after playing SF for a while my thumbs tend to hurt a lot on pad. I don’t have that problem on a stick, since the stick is all hand control vs thumb control. The microswitches used in sticks and buttons are also superior to the rubber based cups used in the controllers, so they’re not only more accurate but last a lot longer, too.

As for the PCB, it should accept inputs just fine. There is also no lag delay from the wireless, Toodles has already proven this. A SIXAXIS pad hack is probably a superior solution to a TE or SE when it comes to PCB and lag.


#9

Typically Execution is faster and more precise on a joystick than a pad. Most people once they get used to a stick play better.

Actually there no longer a difference between wired and wireless. Also remember Six Axis is actually banned in many tournaments. This is solely because how the controller syncs with the PS3 console. Too easy to interfere with a match in progress by accidentally hitting the home button.
I preferred wired not because I mistrust wireless technology, but I do not have a battery to worry about.


#10

Hence why I’d like to get a stick one day, but that day isn’t any time soon. If what I want to do is merely a matter of insufficient practice, I’m OK with that. If my controller just can’t keep up with the speed of input, then I’m not going to bother learning the combos now. Insufficient practice seems to be the consensus rather than hardware limitations, which means back to the lab again.


#11

Wasn’t there a thread here that had the SE and TE PCB’s lagging with the exception of a model or two? In that case, wouldn’t a SIXAXIS PCB be better? Not really talking about wireless, just that the Madcatz PCB’s I read had something wrong with them. I never really noticed to tell the truth, but if it was there, then yeah.

Also, for tourneys, couldn’t you just disconnect the battery and have it connect only via wire?


#12

its not as tough a transition as most people make out.

its just muscle memory. if you commit to it and put in the time in a few weeks you will never look back.

the real question is can you see your self having MORE fun on a stick compared to pad.

for me using a stick is just way way more enjoyable. whether im better no a pad or not is not in question with me, its what i enjoy using.

and obviously after a month now i could never go back to using a dpad.

but yeah as i said, there no way you WONT get great on a stick as long as you stick with it. there no biting off more than you can chew, theres just patience and enjoyment and in 7-10 days you will wonder why you ever worried.


#13

Unfounded claims about lag in major USB controllers Mad Catz and Hori being the ones tested. Myth Debunked.
Theoretically if you have a long enough USB cord you could cause lag, but even then were talking millions or billions of a seccond, far to little for human perception to pick up. I am talking less than a single frame here.
What was wrong with Madcatz PCBs was not lag, there were reliability issued with the older Xbox 360 PCBs and PS3 PCBs being incompatible with some PC USB chipsets and motherboards. Nothing that should even come to effect in a tournament.

As well as Six Axis is concern the Six Axis controller and PCB is flat out banned, Evo said there no compromise. Most tournaments go by Evo as there standards.
Only tournament that I seen allowed Six Axis limited six axis to house owned Controllers. So it the tournaments own pads for players who lack a controller.

Yes you could remove the battery and forced the pcb to get power from the USB cord but the board it self retains a tiny amount of power for a short while, just long enough to interfere with the next match. Depending on the tournament (including Evo) this is still banned. Regardless of technical work arounds the rules are quite clear.

@ grechzoo
Well said, I wasn’t trying to discourage. Just saying some people fest frustrated at lack of instant results. And I have meet people who took longer than 7 days to get used to a stick, but these are just a few. Actual. results vary with the person practicing.


#14

To my understanding the issue with cheap keyboards isn’t due to processing latency so much as it is because it’s only set up to look for so many keys at a time. The end result is if you have more than the specified number of keys pressed down at once but nevertheless, any keystroke should be detected near instantaneously otherwise.

Pretty much any video game oriented device should assume that you’ll need to use a multiplicity of buttons at once for all sorts of modified actions, such as running and jumping in any given direction while charging up an attack all at the same time. As such this particular issue shouldn’t present any problem with combo timing on a game pad A.F.A.I.K.

By the way the technical jargon for this is ‘key rollover’, just in case you care to look it up in further detail. Also keyboard with “full n-key rollover” can detect all of the keys being pressed at once, sidestepping the issue entirely. Those have many more buttons than a gamepad to take into consideration.


#15

Argument on keyboards with the max number of keys presses being registered is a technical limitation confined to keyboards.
Keyboards were never ever meant for gaming. At least not the hard core gaming we do.

There is a stat for keyboards known as** Key Rollover**. Key Roll Over is how many keys can be pressed and still be understood by the keyboards on keyboard encoder and the computers.This number can be anywhere from 1 key plus 1 modifier to 6 keys + all modifiers, to Infinite keys + all modifiers.

The MAX for USB Keyboards set by the the limitations of the keyboard protocols are 6 character/ fuction keys + all 4 modifiers.Or a Rollover of 6 keys+ 4 Modifiers.

A Modiffier key would be Shift, Alt, Crtl and Super (known on a Windows PC as the Windows Key, the Apple Key on a Mac). There are other modifiers but they are unused on a modern Windows/ Linux / Mac OS. (such as the Fn key)

If you keyboard has a round ps/2 plug (not to be confused with Sony’s PS2), depending on the quality of the encoder inside there no limit to the key roll over. Often called Infinite or N Key Roll Over, although the actual limit is 120-140 keys plus all 4 modifiers (the number of keys on a keyboard). Each key is scanned individually and not by any technological limits.

It also depends how the interface works too.
USB works on a Polling protocol, where the Keyboard must wait its turn till the Computer us ready for its input (time measured in a few Micro seconds)
This isn’t a issue of they keyboard is the Sole device on a USB Port. But it becomes a issue if used with a hub connected to other devices.

ps/2 works on a interrupt protocol. Pretty much it tell the computer you have no choice but accept this input or else.

For PC gaming, a PS/2 keyboard encoder with n key rollover or a USB Gaming HID device encoder. USB Keyboards are limited to 6 keys.

If you ask me, Unless you are part of the (very) Old-school MAME crowd, there no reason to use a keyboard encoder for a stick. Go for a USB HID Game controller (human interface device). They function with out drivers and are plug and play.

A Gaming HID USB device include but not limited to Cthulhu, Dual Strike, Paewang ect…

Some online stores that cater to the MAME crown have encoders that can carry the functions of both players on a PC as a USB gaming HID device.

Technically Xbox 360 controllers are not HID devices, since they are not Driver-less. But they still are a better option than a keyboard encoder.


#16

Actually while 6kro is rather common it’s not necessarily a maximum of the U.S.B. port itself. (Although apparently support for this may be somewhat dependent on your specific B.I.O.S. if I’m parsing the statement correctly, which is something I admittedly didn’t know before…)


#17

I played fighting games in arcades “back in the day” but then on pads for over 10 years before getting my first stick. Personally, I think stick is better, but not by much if I’m being honest outside of certain things (eg., plinking, mash attacks). Most of what you’ll be doing is basic timing, which can be learned on a pad no problem.

Just keep playing and practising. If you like fighting games, you should be playing them with whatever hardware you have access to. If you decide to switch to stick one day, it’ll take a while (anywhere between a week and months) to fully get used to it, but all that you have learned on pad can be ported over so to speak.


#18

Well, yes and no. I’m definitely in the old school MAME crowd, and the mindset of using keyboard encoders came about because many emulators only supported keyboard input. Nowadays, it’s rare the emulator that doesn’t support joystick input, but there’s still a few here and there.