You're full of fight! Heihachi Matchup Thread

heihachi

#1

Idea for this thread is to consolidate help requests/tips/technology vs specific characters. I’m happy to update this post as this thread grows. Would be great to have a one-stop resource.

SF
vs Hugo:

Spoiler

Q. What to do after getting knocked down. He just Body Presses me to death.
A. 1st option is to just block. Not many people go for grabs (harder to get in SFxT). And even if they do… it’s better to take that damage than to eat a hit-confirm combo.
2nd option is to Alpha counter his Jump-in (1-meter). Hei is pretty shit on the defense. Well worth spending 1 bar to send Hugo flying away when under pressure of possibly losing 50% or more damage.
3rd option is to Chrome Dome (if you wake-up early enough).
4th option is to either Heaven’s Wrath or Back-dash.

vs Juri

[details=Spoiler]
Q. How do you punish blocked Senpusha? Senpusha is -2/-7/-14 on block.
A. A generic and safe punish is C.mk xxRaijin. Difficult to punish her mk version. The heavier versions should be punished heavily. I’d personally go C.mk xxRU+pp [/details]
vs Rolento

[details=Spoiler]
Q.How to approach Rolento, because I get AA alot. What’s the best way to aprroach somebody on the ground?
A. I have meter build gems just to fight Rolento and beat Patriot Circle. You shouldn’t have to approach a Rolento, he will come to you a just do f.lp walk f.lp pressure and confirm into c.mk xx patriot circle. Counter is worth the risk against him doing the lp pressure. Also Rolento is the perfect character to get used to doing Alpha counters when blocking first hit of Patriot Circle.

Best way to approach is f.mp, walk, dash.[/details]

Tekkens
Vs. King:

[details=Spoiler] General: King’s command throws are high and low, you can crouch or stand the respective ones to avoid being thrown. EX command grabs are strike invincible, but you can still throw him out of startup.
King’s footsie is medium at best, watch out for counterhit Disgraceful Kick, as it leads to a full crumple combo.
Be aware of the delayed last overhead from Rolling Elbow Rush.[/details]


#2

I really think there should be 1 thread for every match-up. It creates a lot of threads… but it sure is much more organized.

But in answer to your question of Juri.
A generic and safe punish is C.mk xxRaijin.
Difficult to punish her mk version.

The heavier versions should be punished heavily. I’d personally go C.mk xxRU+pp

Hugo?

1st option is to just block. Not many people go for grabs (harder to get in SFxT). And even if they do… it’s better to take that damage than to eat a hit-confirm combo.
2nd option is to Alpha counter his Jump-in (1-meter). Hei is pretty shit on the defense. Well worth spending 1 bar to send Hugo flying away when under pressure of possibly losing 50% or more damage.
3rd option is to Chrome Dome (if you wake-up early enough).
4th option is to either Heaven’s Wrath or Back-dash.

Hei is a very difficult character to use. He doesn’t have a universal, “I’ll just uppercut!” option. He has all the tools to handle every situation. You just gotta be a kung-fu master to be able to foresee which one to use.

To use Hei… you need to make reads on the opponent. If you can’t make a good read - then Alpha Counter. If you don’t have the bar… then just block. Because if you guess wrong… GOOD-BYE LIFE!


#3

I agree, it gets initially messy but people have lvies and it takes a lot of time and energy to update first post, better to have a singe thread for each matchup, or one general and one each for his worst.


#4

I’ve seen this work in other subforums. Update the first post to have a breakdown per character, then use spoiler tags to save space. Thus you can easily access the main points of a matchup vs any specific character, then more specific questions can get asked in the main thread and any new info learned from that can be added into the spoiler breakdown.

Example:

Vs. King:

[details=Spoiler] General: King’s command throws are high and low, you can crouch or stand the respective ones to avoid being thrown. EX command grabs are strike invincible, but you can still throw him out of startup. Etc
King’s footsie is medium at best, watch out for counterhit Disgraceful Kick, as it leads to a full crumple combo.
Be aware of the delayed last overhead from Rolling Elbow Rush.
Etc
Etc
Etc [/details]

Vs Marduk:

ETCETCETC in spoilers.


#5

I’m happy to go with the consensus here either way; just wanted to get the ball rolling since I hadn’t seen much on matchups yet.


#6

It works only if the original poster keeps it up to date.

When a thread goes over a long period of time with many pages. It’s a bit of a chore for the original poster to keep it up to date. Especially with all the match-up possibilities in this game.


#7

Hello! Can you guys help me with rolento/guile match-up? How should i aprroach them, because i get AA alot. And overall what’s the best way to aprroach somebody on the ground? Thanks and sorry if i posted in the wrong thread.


#8

Why don’t we have a crack at a consolidated thread approach. Once we get enough information, we may split it out into other threads. It is however early days; there isn’t that much out there.


#9

I have meter build gems just to fight Rolento and beat Patriot Circle. You shouldn’t have to approach a Rolento, he will come to you a just do f.lp walk f.lp pressure and confirm into c.mk xx patriot circle. Counter is worth the risk against him doing the lp pressure. Also Rolento is the perfect character to get used to doing Alpha counters when blocking first hit of Patriot Circle.

Best way to approach is f.mp, walk, dash.


#10

Quite a few of the bison’s I’ve been playing against have basically played runaway/turtle versus me when I have heihachi out, which is probably a good idea since he’s slow as, and they can just chip him down.

Anyway I was playing this one guy who was headstomping and then flying back off to fullscreen to chip me down, and it turns out that you can catch his recovery with super, but only if you time it as a reversal, which is kinda tricky since the blockstun lasts for a bit longer than you’d think. Also if they seem to be teleport happy on wakeup I’d be surprised if you couldn’t reaction punish it with super.

Also, if you want to avoid the headstomp then some of his command normals (f+mp) seem to move you forwards and under the stomp, which seems to work a bit better than forward dashing since it lowers your hitbox. I don’t think you recover fast enough to hit him, but it leaves him close with charge.

The matchup generally seems in bison’s favour, since he’s got a lot of ways to escape heihachi’s pressure and can generally harrass him when he doesn’t have meter.


#11

b.mp beats abel’s wheel kick clean, and you can get lp dp after it. The timing feels like rufus’s s.hp against wheel kick in sf4.


#12

Finally hit B rank running Hei on point (huzzah!) - the downside? Everyone else seems to play Juri.

I’d love to hear what you guys are doing against patient Juri players. Jumping in most cases tends to be a no-no, unless you can manage to get in range for a real deep j hk cross-up that allows you to circumvent her sick cr. HP (or whatever move that is that effectively turns her into a spike-shaped human hitbox on the ground) anti-air. Closing to this range can be tricky aginst solid Fuhajin zoning though.

Where I’ve had the most success is in storing up a bar during neutral and using it on an ex rising upper on reaction to Fuhajin. Once Hei is in there (like against most characters without strong wakeup), life is good.

Really looking forward to hearing from the better Heis out there (Gunsl1nger?) to see what you guys are doing.

EDIT: Since posting this I’ve lost 1000 BP and I’m on the edge of “Fuck it, I’m going to learn the SF cast just like everyone else.”


#13

Lol he is meant to be in the back where as ur first character is meant to not have his weaknesses and can push the opponent into the corner with there combos, so when Hei comes in even in the middle of the stage he will have them close to the corner with his mix-ups. All u need is one touch to start back a combo,mix-up to bring in ur partner to 1. kill the opponent or 2. get back to ur normal play to bring hei back in, for some reason i dont think alot of ppl understand this game to a great extent, no disrespect…


#14

No disrespect taken. Whether or not I’m playing Hei where he’s “meant to be” has no bearing on the matchup with Juri however. I could even make the argument that while my insistence on playing Hei up front may reflect a poor understanding of the game, the hours I’ve put in with him in a sub-optimal position have given me a pretty solid understanding of the character’s strengths, weaknesses, and overall capabilities.

Yes, I realize Heihachi isn’t the prototypical point character.

Yes, I understand that running him up front means I’m fighting an uphill battle, especially when it comes to getting him in the opponent’s face.

No, I don’t think “bring in your partner” is the most helpful response to a post in the Heihachi Matchup Thread, especially given the fact that occasionally, even when you bring Hei in under ideal circumstances, the opponent can reset the situation back to a neutral position.

I understand that you meant no disrespect, and my edit could certainly have come off as whiny (I think anyone who goes through a slump like that gets salty), but I’m looking for people to post some constructive feedback on how to handle Juri (and Vega, and Bison for that matter).


#15

Juri is well sorted to the mechanics of this game. She has competent tools for zoning, an array of mix-ups and speed/agility. You should take a ‘safety-first and patient’ approach to all scenarios.
Let’s first understand how Juri is approaching the battle. Then you will be able to understand how to counter her.
Juri is more of a Hit-And-Run character. She prefers to zone you out til she has created an advantage where she will exploit with extended block-strings or Super-Jump cancels into cross-ups and some mix-ups.

She achieves this by her fireballs. It’s not the minefield of fireballs that you face on approach, which are to worry about. These are just merely distractions to score cheap damage and frustrate you. You have to watch out when you are roughly f+mp range and she has a fb stored. As being hit by a FB (block or hit) at this range will stun you long enough for her to do a mix-up on you. This is what it is for Juri to really zone you.

Fortunately for Hei… this is also Hei’s zoning range too. You are both of equal threat to each other at this distance.

===========
There are no ABSOLUTE do’s and dont’s to ANY match-ups. You do what is right at the time. Sure some things in general are a bad idea… but if you make the read - go for it. Now with that being said… here are some general things.

IN GENERAL

  • Do not forward jump attack Juri. She can easy beat you out of it… and then follow-up juggle. She has a great ground-to-air and a great air-to-air. Don’t fuck with her.
  • She doesn’t have a very good option to Cross-up besides air-to-air (which are fantastic). So don’t get predictable and only occasionally cross-up.
  • Pay attention to her FB stores. You should always be aware of whether or not she has one stored.
  • If she’s attacking you… just block. Wait for her to push you out. The only dangerous thing she can do past a cr.lp range is… overhead. Which she cannot combo after.
  • Her overhead. If hit by it… do not press any buttons. She is +3 on hit. 0 on block. Just take the small damage like a man and relax. It’s one little pissy hit.
  • Her cr.MK xxFB. Don’t press any buttons after blocking this either. She’s fishing for a counter-hit after releasing her stored FB.
  • At point blank range (on defense) she will sometimes Super-Jump cancel her cl.HK into a cross-up.
  • Slow and steady. Back her slowly and safely into a corner. She’s trying to make you make a mistake… you should be doing the same. When she starts running out of real-estate and gets closer to a corner… she may try to CREATE the advantage (like jumping at you) where she is susceptible to counters.
  • She is still deadly if she jumps back. Don’t blindly start dashing after her to make ground (I use to fall for this a lot).

NEUTRAL/RESET POSITIONS
In a neutral match situation you’ll want to approach her slowly. Dodge the fireballs and get into Hei’s zone - it’s f+mp range, give or take, a couple of steps (depending on what you plan on doing) for footsies.

ZONING
If she has NO stored FB… you are at an Advantage. You can attack her… but you she cannot attack you (she has no normals that can reach that far). Neither of you are safe from jump-ins so that cancels itself out. But you can attack her on the ground atleast.

If she has the guts to store a FB at this range, then attack. Remember her animation for visual/sound cue. Mix-up the assault from either approaching from the air or ground. Jump attack; f+MP; Dash-F attack; Rising Uppercut etc. The animation to store a FB takes a small amount of time… and at this range - you can make a play. An experienced Juri player will know or quickly learn that it’s stupid for her to store a FB at this range as Hei can get in so quickly.

If she HAS a stored FB at this range. Then relax. Maybe even back-off a few steps. I’m not saying retreat, but, I’m not saying advance either. I’m saying… be careful. This is now her zone. She wants to stun you and then make a play.
You can make a play to counter her release of the FB with a RU (especially EX). Or Jump-in if you’ve made the read on when she will release. Be wary… if you are incorrect - she will punish you.

WAKE-UP
Juri has weak wake-up options. She is pretty much free. Safe jumping is the way to go.
[LEFT] [/LEFT]
COUNTERING HER KASATUCHI
[LEFT]A meaty attack on wake-up is your best bet (can also be meaty/safe jump attack). That will give you plenty of time to recover to counter HER counter.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]- If she neutral jumps infront of you… wait for her to hit her peak and get her with f+LP, MP… on her way down as she tries to hit you with her split kicks. If you do this too early… your f+LP will whiff and you will eat a full combo. You can do the safer option of Chrome-Dome… but it doesn’t do much damage. She’s a sneaky and quick bitch… so I’ll go for max punish.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]- If she does EX Kasatuchi… she will try to cross-you-up. I haven’t tried it… but Chrome-Dome (when held) may force her to stay infront of you and you can counter her. (un-verified)[/LEFT]
[LEFT]- If she rushes quickly through you… the meaty attack will ensure you have recovered well before hand. You can attack if you believe you have recovered fast enough or just block if unsure (some bitches will ex-pinwheel to catch you trying to poke them).[/LEFT]
[LEFT] [/LEFT]

REMEMBER
If she’s a run away Juri… that’s a good thing. It cuts out half of her plays. If she’s winning by FB’s… then YOU need to stop running into them.

THIS GAME does not care about 1 or 2 individual hits. Just play patient til you can see an opening. 1 combo can take off 1/2 life… so don’t rush it.


#16

Good stuff, s1inger - only 37 more characters to go… until the Vita release anyway.


#17

Two weeks later: thanks to guns1inger’s advice I feel a lot more comfortable with Juri fights. Actually, learning the discipline to handle that matchup has carried over into my other matches as well. I can’t imagine myself being the only one who benefits from these types of breakdowns; couldn’t we manage something like this for the other characters as well using his post as a template?

I’ll start with one of the matchups I feel more confident in (and hope that you guys will chime in with your corrections).

vs. Ryu

Spoiler

Neutral/Reset Positions:
Ryu’s successful neutral game against Heihachi is predicated upon his ability to keep Hei out using his fireballs, strong grounded normals, and formidable array of anti-airs. While Ryu is a well rounded character with the ability to switch from zoning to rushdown in about the time it takes to CADC a fireball, this approach brings him into the space where Hei has options, and consequently isn’t in his best interest.

Hei’s neutral game is all about establishing the range where he can begin to threaten Ryu - namely near the edge of f+mp’s range. This space keeps you outside the range of Ryu’s low forward (arguably his best grounded normal), gives you the option to punish the recovery of any ill-advised attacks with your f+mp or a jump in, and allows you to anti-air into a full combo with b+mp. At closer range, your cr. mk buffered into raijin stance is a better option than f+mp due to its faster startup. With bar, EX RU becomes a threatening option on reaction to just about any fireball or whiffed attack.

Your goal, as is the case against most anyone in this game, is to work Ryu into the corner by forcing him to respect your optimal range.

One thing to look out for as you back Ryu up is his air tatsu. While not nearly as dangerous as Ken’s, Ryu’s ability to alter his jump arc and cross you up can foil your attempts to limit his real estate. If you can get a good read on his jump and the spacing is right, you can AA with your choice of b+mp, f+lp>mp, or chrome dome, or dash under it and punish. And of course blocking is an option, but then you’ve got to skip ahead to the “He’s In There” section, and where’s the fun in that?

Note: If you’re at full screen, you can reflect Ryu’s slow fireball pretty reliably and use it as a shield (you’ll need pretty godlike reactions to reflect the fast ones), but I would recommend just neutral jumping them and dashing afterward to close the distance. There’s no point in risking eating fireballs since there’s nothing you plan to do at full screen anyway.

You’re In There:
So you’ve managed to back Ryu up, knock him down, or find some other way to get in his face with frame advantage… mix. him. up. Just remember (and how can you forget?) that Ryu has a 3 frame invincible reversal up his sleeve. Always.

I know a lot of you out there love Hei’s f+lp>mp. Understand that if you do this against a good Ryu, he will srk you between the hits for a full combo - not good times. In general, you’ll want to opt for safe strings into manual high/low mixups. f+lp>lp>qcf+lp is a nice block string that gives you options. (There’s lots in the general thread about how to follow up this string)

An alternative to the demon breath safe string is jab pressure into f+lk followed by more jab pressure with some hammer punches and throws tossed in there. Occasionally stagger your jabs to bait out attempts at reversals (Ryus love their dps) - and if you want to get really risky, try jabs into counter. It catches Ryu’s dp as well as any other counterpoke.

In general, do your normal Hei thing, but be mindful of Ryu’s invincible dp.

He’s In There:
Things don’t always go according to plan, and you’ll occasionally have to deal with Ryu’s pressure game. Don’t worry - Hei has some really solid tools available to deal with it. Most of Ryu’s pressure comes from three places:
[LIST=1]
[]Jab pressure CADC into throw/more jabs/overhead. When Ryu starts jabbing,expect he’s going to CADC. It puts him at -4, making it punishable with just frame timing (Hei’s jab is 4 fr. startup), but even if you can’t punish him, correctly anticipating it will put you back on the offensive.
[
]Jab pressure into crossups - a lot of characters, Ryu included, will try to take advantage of Hei’s significant AA blindspots using repeated jumps/crossups. For me, the best answer to has been a jump back mp, mk, or hk. If you’re in the corner, you’ll have to just dash under or get creative. While this doesn’t yield the best results in terms of damage, the reset situation (and resulting strong position for Hei) is enough to dissuade your opponent from trying to abuse this.
[]cr. mk into some flavor of donkey kick. This looks scary, and it’s easy to feel like this is broken, especially considering that ex and hk are both + on block. Against Hei, if Ryu does this, his pressure ends. If Ryu goes with cr. mk into lk or mk donkey, it’s a true blockstring, but is negative on block, allowing you to start your offense. If Ryu tries to play for continued advantage and opts for the HK donkey, it is not a true blockstring. So here’s what you do… as soon as you see the animation for donkey kick, counter. If he opted for the true string, you’ll auto-block. If he goes with the hard donkey kick, you get the counter.
[/LIST]
TL : DR
[LIST]
[
]Ryu has a really strong neutral game. The onus is on Hei to work to establish his ideal (f+mp) range by neutral jumping fbs and maintaining AA range while advancing. Ryu should play to keep him out.
[]Hei’s goal is to corner his opponent (not Ryu specific, per se, but important)
[
]On the offensive, standard tactics apply, but Hei has to respect the dp. Baiting the dp can be very effective, especially if it’s backdashed, preventing a tag cancel.
[*]Ryu’s rushdown game plays to Hei’s strengths; he has an answer for almost all of Ryu’s pressure tactics: specifically his 1fr counter and solid air-to-air response to shallow crossups.
[/LIST]


#18

Has anyone found a solution to Ken’s cross-up air tatsu?

CD absorbs the hit but the recovery is too long, b+mp starts up too slow to catch the cross up, dashing is hilarious (you’ve seen Hei’s dash, right?), alpha sends him across the screen, so you have to work to get in all over again, and air-to-air is a mixed bag at best. As I start to play more and more high-level players, it seems like Ken’s optimal strategy is to simply repeatedly throw out ambiguous air tatsus. I’ll post some match footage later when I get home from work - hopefully you guys can help me out.


#19

One thing I have to add regarding the Juri match: weak wake-ups don’t matter in this game. She’ll just roll out.