Yun's bad match ups

yun

#1

I know that the match-up list made by eventhubs doesn’t say much but I actually agree for most of Yun’s match-ups especially the bad match-ups except Ryu and Ken. You guys agree that it’s 4-6 against Yun? Sure it’s a bit tough because of their 3-f reversals but i find the match ups to be pretty even. Heck, MAYBE against Ryu it’s 4-6 but ken? I dunno. The only match ups I really think gives yun trouble is sagat and gouken, and maybe guile.


#2

i’d say grapplers and Sagat are 4-6. Other matchups feel pretty even while sim is obviously in Yun’s favor. I don’t see why Gouken would be hard for Yun, could you elaborate? Guile is pretty much screwed in the corner and is free to x-up dk. Being patient and landing a combo or a fwd. throw can really turn this match around.


#3

I don’t know if I’m approaching this matchup wrong or what, but has anyone played a good Balrog recently? It seems like he can give Yun a lot of problems.


#4

Yeah I agree grapplers and sagat = 4-6. Guile once knocked down is free to x-dk yes, but good guiles can keep yun out pretty well i feel, gouken as well on the same token, not to mention he can counter x-dks with his counter.

I vsed some good balrogs and i noticed that you just gotta be on point with your dive kicks, they love to mash jabs and throws after one. Try to mix in a lot of regular jump ins into ex command throw, that works really well (u get like 80% of the meter back anyways, a block string after the combo will give u 20% back as well). Also, x-light dk doesn’t work on him as far as I’m concerned, so you’re kinda forced to stay in front of him. cr.jab OS light lunge works, timing is just strict.


#5

what do you think about the match ups against charge characters?


#6

I would say that only Blanka is bothersome. I personally think Honda is in Yun’s advantage and that Guile, Rog and Chun are even if you have a good ground game.


#7

Agreed. the st.jab whiffing on blanka is MAD annoying. I’m contemplating to switch character for this match up -.-;;

I haven’t too much experience against a GOOD guile or chun but I do have some tips on vs Honda. There isn’t much Honda can do to keep you out unless he has meter (duh), otherwise, delayed dive kick from a good spaced neutral jump will get you in easily. A lot of hondas will try to STOP SIGN you when they realize they can’t pork chop your dive kick, to counter this, bait his neutral jump attack and punish with lunge punch as he comes down. 90% of the time he’ll have put his stop sign in the air in anticipation of your jump and you’ll hit him with the lunch punch. Delayed cross up dive kick will blow up his buttstomp and ex headbutt. Meaning, he has no option against you on wake up so abuse it.


#8

Kaz and Dieminion just ran a long set on FGTV. Kaz won 34-17, but a lot of the matches were closer than that score indicates. Also keeping in mind that Kaz has a lot of Yun experience and there are no Yun masters in the US yet. Main thing I took away is that Yun’s advantage on knock down, in the corner and with meter is a bit better than Guile’s threats under those same circumstances, which makes the match in Yun’s favor. Guile has better normals, but Yun’s neutral jump game doesn’t allow Guile to commit to his advantages, not to mention how easy Guile is to focus in the mid range footsies game. Yun’s Ultra I as anti air is also a nice advantage in this fight. Yun is free to Ultra chip from Guile after a throw.

Dieminion estimated it is either 5-5 or 4.5-5.5 in Yun’s favor and I think he’s about right.


#9

:frowning: i missed it. can you break down the match here? (what they did in neutral game, how kaz got in, how dieminion defended, etc)


#10

Match starts at about 4:59


#11

still dont think he has any bad match ups, but the harder ones are def Gief, hawk, and Sagat


#12

My gut tells me that you’re right. Aside from his low stamina , he has the tools to deal with a lot of character’s strengths. Similar to Adon, I think Yun is more about your ability to switch styles with the matchup than it is about Yun just not having the “stuff” to deal with this character or that. I won’t get into numbers, because I think that stuff gets a little abstract, but I think matchups really comes down to whether or not you have the tools to win.

I think Yun has the tools to win against almost every character in the game, if not all of them. Characters with superior footsies and a good dp might be bad matchups, but we’ll see. The most important thing to remember about Yun is that he’s still a really, really new character. The 2011 version doesn’t count for much experience, since he was at advantage in almost every situation and people didn’t really think when they used him because bulldozing was enough to win.


#13

yea, i mean the yuns we saw today on stream proves he’s def still very good. sherm almost beat poongko (he could and SHOULD have) and kazunoko and hsien chang did really well in the tournament and definitely could have taken top 8. The game is so balanced and players are so good nowadays that any of the top players representing any character could have made it far in tournament or even flat out winning.

Also, i disagree that hawk is a bad match up at all, and same with gief. if you play the match up right they cannot be aggressive against you. Thawk gets beat in footsie and against gief it can go either way.


#14

This might sound crazy: The more I look at the character, the more I think no one knows how to play him right now. Kaz is obviously the closest, but even he makes obvious mistakes and unnecessary gambles. I think Yun right now is a lot like early Justin Rufus or early Kindevu Viper. Those guys were the top players of those characters at the time, but the elite play of those characters has evolved a bit since then, and your average tourney Rufus does the things that only Justin was doing before.

I think the same thing will happen with Kaz’s Yun. Right now, most Yun’s are just terrible, and Kaz has a tourney Yun. By next Evo, Yun play will be evolved more so than other characters who have been around and mostly unchanged since 08. In your average weekly, you will see local Yuns doing most or all of what Kaz is doing now. 2011 Yun wasn’t played honestly and 2012 Yun was abandoned until recently.

People who dedicate themselves 100% to 2012 Yun will be rewarded. Watching Kaz and Hsien do so well with such big giant holes in their games is a very good look for Yun.


#15

In what ways do you think Yun will evolve? From what i’ve seen, i agree that kazunoko took unnecessary big risks but that’s just his play style, while Hsien chang was actually one of the most solid if not the most solid Yun i’ve seen. I didn’t really see holes in his game on stream aside from just being outplayed when he did lose.

do you think people are taking unnecessary risks with Yun by rushing in too hard?

In retrospect though: I noticed that both of them at many points in the match got too eager to get in and burned meters on ex and lunge - fadc… That might be a problem.

If anything I think Yun gameplay will evolve around conserving meter for genei jin and resets in genei jin in the future, as i’ve noticed a lot of Yuns, myself included, get lazy sometimes and want easy ways in so waste meter on ex-lunge punches.


#16

The short answer to your question: I think Yun will evolve in ways that we don’t see today, based off of the play of his specialists grinding it out.

That having been said, there are definitely things I’m going to try for myself to get that going, as I continue to work on this character in my spare time. I can’t stress enough that I’m a long way from my goals, but making great progress. Right now I’ve got most of his BnB links and ultra confirms to be very consistent, but I still have to work on an optimized Genei Jin, resets, Ultra II scenarios and most importantly, Dive Kick spacing.

So the goal right now is the get the fundamentals of Kaz’s gameplay down and use it as a springboard for my own progress. The main two things that I don’t see people doing is valuing Yun as a corner dominant character. There are a lot of ways that people don’t do this. Sometimes it’s back throws, unnecessary walking back, cross ups and what have you, but the bottom line is that Yun can confirm literally any hit into ultra I with one meter when he’s even close to the corner. It’s like he has a FADC Ultra but only with one meter. That’s so good, lol.

So right off the bat, I would say that I’m going to experiment with maintaining corner control without pressing too much once I have Ultra. Yun is a character that transforms based on every single meter he has.

Just a few options during meter progression:
1 meter-- EX Upkicks into Ultra in corner
2 meter–EX throw into Upkicks into Ultra in the corner/EX Lunge into 50/50 EX Upkicks/EXthrow
3 meters–FADC/Reset opportunities
4 meters–Genei Jin

I realize that people are aware of this, but I don’t think his gameplay reflects that right now. I think his gameplay still has a lot of 2011 Yun in it. I’m not seeing a great shift in his dynamics during his meter progression in matches. Every midscreen EX lunge is just awful, imo. So often that 50/50 leads into missed upkicks and for what? That’s like a 2 1/5 meter Rufus doing EX Messiah in reaction to a poke, taking away one EX meter and one of his best Ultra confirms from the midscreen.

Another thing I see is a pattern of Yun getting meter in a loss in the first round, then winning the 2nd round w/ Genei Jin, then losing in the third round w/o resources. I think this is a byproduct of the opponent not being scared enough of Yun w/ meter, and Yuns “gonig for it” when they have Genei Jin. It should be much easier to get grab and command grab once Yun is fully buttered if the opponent is scared to have jab confirmed into 500+ damage.

So those are just a few things. I could be wrong and time, practice and 1000s of matches will tell. I thought Yun was mid tier when I picked up the game again, but these are the kinds of things that has me thinking he could be right outside of that top 6 or 7.


#17

The main reason i will say hes not tournament viable is the fact he has no reliable wake up option in a game that relies heavily on vortex and cross up setups and having a character without fadc’ble wake up move he has to commit with his upkicks if he guesses wrong hes pretty much done, the Yun player has to always dominate the match to stand a chance.


#18

rofl!
>not tournament viable
>yun got top 25 at EVO

get out of here. if yun’s not tournament viable then rufus isn’t also.


#19

Rufus has safe wake up options when he has meter and is overall more solid because of it theres a reason why Daigo didn’t stick with Yun, he wont win anything besides small tournaments he relies too much on luck imo.


#20

bnb links, ultra, optimizing genei jin, dive kick spacings and resets are basic things you should already have down and if you see top yun players they utilize yun’s corner game very well actually. i don’t pay attention to bad yuns that give up corner so easily so i don’t know if vast majority of yuns do that since i dont.

2011 yun was non-stop dive kick pressure and whiffing dive kicks into spamming command grabs and ex command grabs while doing lunges and palms. you can’t play like that in 2012…

actually, one of the strong points of yun is that even if he loses the first round, as long he has genei jin in the second he can get another super in the 3rd round if he can land a genei jin in beginning of round 2. After you land gj in early in round 2 you’ll be getting another 2-4 bars depending on if your opponent hurts you or not. either way i’ve came back from losses in 1 round only to have genei jin in both 2nd and 3rd.