Zangief EX-KD is back, and safe Greenhand. Something is not right :/

zangief

#1

Did you all see the news? sounds great right?

im 90% certain that we wont be able to whiffpunish into EX-KD and we wont be able to combo to EX-KD. So yes, the matchup vs. Ryu, Akuma, Ken, Rose, Sagat, Dhalsim will get Slightly better. But we will still be outmatch by all the same footsie char that was really hard from before. Like Honda… When will they understand that we need the KD at all times. grrr. Nerf SPD dmg instead!


#2

IMO Ken was 5-5 before and with his buffs it should be slightly worse. Sagat and Dhalsim will always be horrible just by design (Sim is getting buffed so it won’t get better. Sagat won’t get nerfed so not much hope for this MU either). Ryu will probably be easier. Maybe Akuma depending on how they nerf him, but FB’s aren’t really a problem in that MU anyway.

If everyone else was staying the same, that stuff might’ve worked out decently, but with our 5-5’s getting really good buffs and other bad MU’s that will only get buffed (Juri, Sagat, Chun, Guile, Dhalsim etc) we’re once again probably getting the short end of the stick. Forever a mid/low-mid tier character getting nerfed like he’s top 3 -_-


#3

I’m assuming you are talking about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKtOCKXHXZs#t=36m55s Yeah that overhyper assburgersy asshole with the annoying voice at 36m 55s was me. I wanted to get on SRK just to clairfy some things that i spoke to combofiend about afterwards. Knockdown isn’t hard knockdown, so you can tech right back up, not enough time for crossup setups. He pretty much said that you had more options with the +1 frame then the knockdown. Also about the banishing flat. He said “faster for more combo potential” What this means is that recovery AND the startup is faster, enough so yes, finally, its not -5 to -7 on hit. That doesn’t mean safe on block. I couldn’t get the exact number but i confirmed that you won’t be punished on hit anymore by reversals so i’m assuming its 0 frames. As far as knockdown, that was supposed to be a nerf. If you’d like it i could provide evidence that i am the guy in the q&a with voccaroo or some pictures i took with Peter.


#4

Oh my god, so they wanted to nerf EX GH again?
I’m in a state of disbelief. So what is he getting to buff him to deal with his bad match-ups?


#5

Can you possibly confirm what was said about not being able to combo into EX GH anymore and LP SPD nerf?


#6

Both never mentioned at the panel and he definitely didn’t say anything about slower ex greenhand. Though i belive it, ex hand being +1 was intend to be a buff and knockdown a nerf. I’d belive a slower ex green hand though, he really wanted to make it clear that it was a nerf and the fixed regular greenhand was to compensate.


#7

Thats pretty much a part of playing gief, like you said some matchups will always just be bad for gief, but hopefully now you can actually play footsies and do decent damage/mixups with regular green hand combos if you don’t have meter to spend. With sim you can always OS lk into short larait on his limbs, so having ex not be comboable isn’t THAT a big of a deal if it means regular greenhand is no longer his least viable move in combos.


#8

Wow…I really wish I knew what they were seeing in Gief that makes him so top tier…


#9

Maybe it’s a rework instead of a buff and now he’ll have decent combo potential outside of EX GH. Pffffffft.


#10

It won’t be a big deal if he has other buffs coming. But if his only “buff” is not getting punished for actually hitting the opponent and those nerfs pan out, then he’s about to be free as oxygen.


#11

No this is 4-6 in Zangief’s favor. You should use Ultra 2. Ken does not have a reliable grounded AA.

-His cr.HP starts up in 5 frames has bad range
-His standing LK has half the active frames that Ryu does
-His cr.MK only has 2 active frames and is not a true blockstring to his fireball
-His step kick can be SPD’d since it is negative frames on block and hit
-His fireball recovers in 47 frames where Akuma 44 and Ryu 45

Zangief is one of Ken’s worst match ups. Knockdown on greenhand is going to make it worse since U2 will shut him down on wake up.


#12
  • Ken’s M. SRK is the most dangerous of any shoto. And EX SRK goes through U2 so if Ken has meter, he doesn’t have to respect it.
  • cr.HP is largely irrelevant in that matchup
  • st.LK also isn’t a big deal
  • Neither is any shoto except E. Ryu. His cr.MK isn’t as gdlk as Ryu but serviceable enough
  • From max range you can’t SPD it
  • It doesn’t matter. No shoto can throw fireballs when Gief has meter.

Ken has good pressure against Gief. Sure he has to be careful, like all shotos, but he’s the strongest in the midrange. With Ryu, Gief can stand outside of cr.MK range and take shots with st.MP and st.LK and Ryu can’t do much but try to close the distance or risk a fb. Ken has step kick so he has options in that space. His st.RH is also way better in this MU than Ryu and Akuma’s and Gief is as susceptible to kara throw as any other char. Ken’s U1 is AA and he can combo into it.

Gief can’t set the pace of this MU. He moves at Ken’s and punishes him for bad spacing. This is the case with Ryu as well but he doesn’t have near the comeback factor that Ken does and isn’t close to being as frightening in the midrange. I’ll eat cr.MK > Hadoken all day to get my Russian hands on Ryu but how many full step kick combos can Gief eat before the life lead becomes insurmountable?


#13

If you got the impression it was a nerfed, it must be because they are removing the comboability from it. And in doing so, allowing to to KD, as long as regular hands have the same properties as current ex-gh on hit, Zangief will be very slightly better, in a select few matchups. But seeing as how many of hes 4-6 and 5-5s will get buffs aswell, he will proabably turn out even worse. For crying out loud, Zangief has one “major” win, which all due respect, was lacking hugely in representation, as many players where allready qualified or did not show.

Snakeeyes who is a true beast, more often ends up in 9th-25 than 1-8th and you can not doubt him as a player. You could in theory doubt other giefs, as they have less proving grounds and exposure.

Ex-KD with comboability is a huge buff, and will make gief place in top 15 at the tierlists, if not top 10. Which is why I doubt it has been given without consequence. And LOL at EX-Hand with +1 has more options that KD. You can get that same situation by waiting next to the target with KD, except u wont auto trade with 3frame pokes.

@Ken matchup. Id say slight gief favor. But not because of U2, because in reality you can EX-AA. and you get a higher payoff from reading one U2 jumpin(Punish with full Ultra, RAW, No scale) than we do if we guess your uppercut. The reasons why I feel Gief can stop Ken is hes access to better groundgame, and ken not beeing able to really utilise hes fireball once gief has bar. the stepkick is “safe” on block when used correctly, safe as in not punishable. Used correctly as in spaced as any other character must space hes or her pokes!

Regarding c.mk, it is also harder to whiffpunish for Zangief than Ryu and Akuma. Not that it really matters :3


#14

He can utilize his fireball. The thing is, it’s hard for Gief to footsie Ken inside of step kick range because if he gets hit with it, it’s a combo (something most Ken players don’t do as it’s a 1f link, I believe). And if you block it you’re in a mixup and Ken’s mixups on the ground with kara grab are way more dangerous than Ryu. So, you’ll want to be standing outside of step kick range. Thing is, that’s the range where Ken can throw fireballs and Gief can’t punish with EX GH. Neither Ryu or Akuma can do that.

And like I said before, Gief can always catch up to Ryu because Ryu doesn’t hurt. cr.MK, fireball…w/e. When Ken touches you, you feel it. Step kick combos, cr.MK, SRK, FADC combos, counter-hit combos into U1. Ken hurts. And he’s harder to catch when he gets the life lead as he still has runaway tatsu in the corner (I swear they took that away from him in super…). Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe his SRK, FADC forward may be -1, unlike Ryu’s which is -2 and can be punished with SPD.


#15

Lets not discuss it, we all agree its winnable on both sides! Lets focus on the issue, we need some clarification from capcom. Its super anoying that they just say things, but dont say the whole truth.


#16

Is there any chance that they might reverse their status? I assume these are prospective changes.
I’d love to know what they’re basing it on though. It burns me up to read well known players suggesting changes that better their own character (indirectly) and can’t help but wonder if 'Gief suffered because of that.


#17

I really wish Ultra 2 was that easy!!! On descending kamikaze U2, Ken can EX Shoryuken out, and it comes down to recovery of U2 vs recovery of EX Shoryuken. And I think ken recovers quicker - although with U2, you can steer away to make it more safe, ie. to reduce the amount of punish.

[quote=“Veggey, post:13, topic:162960”]

Depends if they want to put the opponent in a bounce away state. At current, with the +1 EXGH, you can punish jumps and back dashes with a guess, or somewhat safely with a forward dash. But even with the soft knock down, and say they add a that bounce away animation, you could be too far to close with ample time, or fit in a regular GH - thus only allowing you to get them to the corner much much quicker, without advantage. But hopefully I’m so wrong!


#18

double post


#19

Why assume that they would change it from the way it knocked down in Super? the way KD has always worked with EX-GH, and still does on counterhit, is a nice jump in front setup if they quickrise, or a better setup if they dont. Either way you are at much more advantage than just beeing +1 sometimes next to them, but most of the time slightly far away.


#20

I’ll adjust to whatever they give us…I don’t even know what the changes are :slight_smile: