Zangief Flowchart (with Option Select Meaties)

zangief

#1

This is a nice little flowchart of Zangief’s best options in certain situations. Some of these involve some pretty fancy things, including safe jumps, option selects, short jumps, kara cancels, and unthrowable specials, so I’ll explain them in case you’re not familiar with them.

This is something I’ve been working on for a while and still have some more work to do on, so expect changes and expect videos. Where there’s a question mark, that means I’m still doing some tinkering. Feel free to test everything out, make sure it all works, and let me know if you have any better ideas. Thanks!

Basic lingo

Move terminology
I tend to flip back and forth between the old and new normal attack names, so hopefully this clears things up. Jab is light punch (lp), strong is medium punch (mp), fierce is hard punch (hp), short is light kick (lk), forward is medium kick (mk), and roundhouse (rh) is hard kick (hk). In general I’ll use “toward” to mean moving in the direction of or facing the opponent to avoid conflicts with forward/medium kick, but eh, don’t hold me to that. Splash means jumping down+fierce and knees means jumping down+short. PPP means all three punches, kkk means all three kicks, and any combination of p and k means whatever number of punches and kicks are listed in the combination. Spd means spinning pile driver and 360k always refers to atomic suplex (the move that comes out when you do that motion up close). If I mean running bear grab (the move that comes out when you do that motion far away), then I’ll say rbg, but in general that move is nothing but a moving taunt. DP means dragon punch or dragon punch motion. Dt means down-toward, as in Gief’s down-toward+rh sweep. Headbutt refers to neutral jumping up+fierce.

Character names
Also, I usually use the ST-style code names for the bosses with switched names. US Balrog/JP M Bison = Boxer; US M Bison/JP Vega = Dictator; US Vega/JP Balrog = Claw. And as far as I’m concerned, El Fuerte is Fuerte, E Honda is Honda, C Viper is Viper, Chun Li is Chun, and Fei Long is Fei.

Option-select (o-s for short)
Refers to the game engine’s ability to select the best option for the player from among a set of inputs put in by the player either simultaneously or close to it. In an option select, there is a dominant option (like a fierce splash) that comes out under most circumstances and one or more subordinate options (like an ex hand, a lariat, or a throw) that come out in some circumstances where the dominant option doesn’t work. You can use this to guarantee a good result for yourself in some situations by using a dominant option that’s good in most cases and hiding within it one or more subordinate options that can come out to address other cases should they arise instead.

Meaty attacks
Attacks done as the opponent is getting up from a knockdown, ie ones he has to wake up into.

Reversal aka reversal aka wakeup attack)
A special, super, or ultra move done on the first possible frame after waking up from a knockdown, waking up from being reset in the air, coming out of hit stun, or coming out of block stun. You’ll see the “reversal” message pop up on the screen if you do it right.

Safe attacks
This refers to two things. The first and most common usage is either a grounded attack (called a safe meaty) or an airborn attack (called a safe jump) timed so that you’ll recover from the attack in time to block if the opponent did a reversal move, but if the opponent didn’t do a reversal move, he’ll be touched by (ie either hit by or have to block) the attack. This works because some characters’ reversals take a little while in between when they begin and when they actually start hitting; your meaty attack has to both hit and recover all during that window. The other thing this references is a meaty attack located on screen such that it either cleanly beats the opponent’s reversal attack or leaves Gief at a range where he’s out of harm’s way.

Short jump
Zangief can make his jump distance slightly shorter if he presses up and then up-toward instead of just up-toward. This is actually not a bug, it’s a confirmed feature that was thought to have been taken out but was accidentally left in only for Zangief. Here’s a [media=youtube]-6OhtwgWp3s"[/media] on it.

“Cr. jab” etc
When I say “cr. jab” or something like “air attack cr. jab o-s green hand,” the cr. jab means do a bunch of crouching jabs like how you normally would in a crouching jab block string or combo. If you’re holding back while you do that, a properly timed safe attack will still let you block the opponent’s wakeup attack because that wakeup attack puts you in block stun before your 2nd jab can come out.

Kara cancel
Kara canceling is canceling the early startup frames of a normal attack into a command move. This can be done with any normal attack (ie light kick, hard punch) into any command attack (ie taunt, dragon punch). This can be done for any number of reasons, but it’s most often used to improve the range of whatever move you cancel into by using the startup frames of a normal that moves you forward. You’ve probably heard of kara throwing, which is where you cancel whatever normal your character has that moves him forward during its startup into a throw in order to gain more effective throw range. Gief’s standing roundhouse is his best kara normal and is most important in kara hand.

Unthrowable special
If you press up and then input a command move, your move will become unthrowable. This works because pre-jump frames, the startup frames for jumping, are unthrowable and also cancelable in the same way that the startup frames of normal attacks are cancelable in kara canceling. This is probably most useful for Zangief because he has the most pre-jump frames (six) and because his lariat doesn’t require any extra directional inputs that could make the motion harder. Note that the special move itself doesn’t become unthrowable, the only thing that is unthrowable is the pre-jump; once the unthrowable pre-jump ends and the move itself begins, you’re as throwable as ever.

General Option Selects

Cr. short o-s normal throw
-----What: This is a way to apply some pressure with a normal move and simultaneously tech the opponent’s throw if they try to throw you.
-----How: Just input down+jab+short.
-----Where: For Gief this is usually most useful after doing a meaty jumping knees. The knees don’t do enough block stun for Gief to land safely after them, so the opponent can actually throw Gief before Gief can land and do a normal attack. If you land and do this o-s instead, though, you’ll just tech the throw.

St./cr. jab/short to nothing o-s ex hand
-----What:
-----How:
-----Where: Use this in footsies

Safe jump to cr. jab/short o-s block
------What: This is a great way to apply some safe pressure. If the opponent tries a reversal attack then Gief blocks before his cr. jab/short come out, and if the opponent sits there he’s forced to block or get hit by the safe jump. This only works on characters whose special moves have 5 frames or more of startup time.
------How: Just do a meaty air attack timed really early while holding down-back on the stick and then time your down-back+jab/short like normal. If the opponent sits, your attack should touch him right before Gief touches the floor.
------Where: Useful only in meaty situations.

Safe meaty cr. jab/short or standing strong o-s block
------What: Same deal as the safe jump but with a grounded attack. Your meaty attack has to either recover very quickly so that Gief can block attacks that would otherwise hit him or have a hitbox in a location that either beats the opponent’s wakeup attack or puts Gief out of harm’s way. Gief’s crouching jab and crouching short recover in time to block reversal attacks with at 7 and 8 frames of startup respectively, and his crouching short and standing strong take advantage of some characters’ weak wakeup attack hitboxes.
------How: Time your meaty attack as early as possible so that only the very end of its hitting frames touch the opponent as he gets up. Make sure you hold down-back or back while doing this so that you’ll block if he does a reversal.
------Where: Useful only in meaty situations.

Cr. jab to cr. jab o-s sweep
------What: Some players like back dashing on wakeup against Gief because it’s usually an easy and effective way to escape. This removes that option for many characters while still letting Gief try a meaty pressure string, and in some cases it also lets Gief block some reversal attacks in time. Some characters can get hit by Gief’s regular down+rh sweep, while for others you’ll need his down-toward+rh long kick. Other characters are immune to this entirely. Lots of characters have wakeup attacks that make your meaty jab unsafe. This is a modified, simplified version of the option-select shown [media=youtube]vgRnoxom2UM"[/media].
------How
-----------Regular: Down-back+jab, down-back+rh-then-jab, down-back+jab
-----------Down-toward (dt): Down-back+jab, down-toward+rh-then-jab, down-back+jab. Gotta be quick on the stick.
------Where: Only works when you’re right next to your opponent. If you just green handed over after landing a regular spd, you’re too far. BTW, Gief isn’t the only character who can do this… I’m looking at you, Dictator and Blanka.

Jump attack to cr. jab/short o-s green hand
------What: If your opponent does something to escape your jump attack, your green hand will come out and either chase them down or beat whatever they were doing. If they sit still, you’ll touch them with your air attack and start a block string.
------How: Input air attack and then dp+p timed for just after your air attack hits or would hit your opponent, and then down-back+jab/short once you hit the ground like normal. Choice of green hand strength depends on the situation.
------Where: This is usually best in meaty situations as a safe jump, although it’s also good when jumping at an opponent whose best reversal is a teleport.

Jump attack to cr. jab/short o-s grab
------What: Just like jump attack o-s hand but useful against opponents whose escapes are vulnerable to throws. Unless you have super/ultra, 360+k is the best grab to use because it puts you in a better post-grab situation than spd while doing about as much damage/stun. You can do this with a normal throw too, but… you’re Zangief.
------How: Input air attack and then 360+pp immediately after, and then down-back+short once you hit the ground like normal. If you want to do jump attack o-s normal throw, you’ll have to jump from a little farther back and then input your attack followed immediately by lp+lk.
------Where: This is really only useful in one situation. Sorry Abel players!

Jump attack to cr. jab/short o-s lariat
------What: Just like jump attack o-s hand and jump attack o-s spd but useful against characters whose escapes are vulnerable to this o-s instead of those.
------How: Input air attack and then ppp immediately after, and then down-back+jab/short once you hit the ground like normal.
------Where: Useful only in meaty situations.

Other Tricks

Crouching short in block strings
------What: If you start a block string on an opponent and he thinks you’re going to try spd, he’ll sometimes either hold up on the stick to try to jump away or try inputting a revresal attack motion. Unfortunately for him, he can’t both hold up on the stick and block low attacks and it’s difficult to fit an entire dragon punch etc motion into the space of low short’s blockstun; if he tries to jump, he’ll always get hit by the short, and if he tries to do a reversal, he’ll usually get hit by the short. Either always use crouching shorts in block strings (which can be unsafe against some characters, since reversaling out is still possible even if it can be hard) or switch from crouching jab (which is always safe in block strings) to crouching short if you see the opponent standing up or think he’s trying to input a reversal.
------How: Just… press crouching short.
------Where: Whenever you have the opponent in a block string, especially when you see him stand up.

Kara hand
-----What: You can kara cancel your standing roundhouse into green hand (aka banishing flat, aka glove, aka hand). This is sweet because it gives the green hand enough range to punish some things that Gief otherwise can’t punish. Here’s Renegade’s video on it from when he first found it.
-----How: In a quick motion, do toward, down, toward+rh~pp, where the ~ means right after and the pp means two punch buttons. It’s kind of hard to explain the timing for this in words, but, well, do it really quickly after. It’s the same timing as for a kara throw, if you’ve done one of those. Always use ex hand.
-----Where: Useful after blocking or getting hit by a vertical Blanka ball. It turns out you don’t need it to punish standing blocked horizontal Blanka balls, you can just take a step forward and do regular ex hand to punish that, but you do need it to punish crouch blocked horizontal Blanka balls. It also turns out that you don’t need to to punish Chun’s jump back instant overhead roundhouse; whether you get hit by or block that overhead, you can just do regular ex hand at the peak of her jump to knock her out of the air.

Kara throw
-----What: Don’t ignore Gief’s neutral throw just because he has command grabs, his neutral throw is still good. In order to get a little more range on it, you can kara cancel your far standing roundhouse into your throw.
-----How: Just tap rh and immediately after press jab+short. The timing is pretty fast. If you do it right you should see Gief blip forward just a little bit before throwing.
-----Where: Whenever you’re not at point blank and want a normal throw. For example, a useful setup is point blank cr. short cr. short, at which point a regular throw will whiff but a kara throw will still work.

Command grab after opponent backdashes out of normal throw in the corner
-----What: This isn’t really an option select since you still need to select the best option for yourself, but I’m throwing it in here anyway. This applies when you have the opponent cornered and go for a neutral throw. The opponent can escape by hitting you, teching, backdashing, or jumping. This trick applies to backdashing and jumping. If he backdashes, with some characters that means that you get a free ultra and with some others you get a free spd! If he jumps, against most characters you get a free lariat. You have to wait to see which one he does, but essentially it’s just a really easy hit confirm. By the way, if your throw gets teched, you’re in range for jab spd after the tech, so you get to play another guessing game even if your throw gets teched.
-----How: Buffer a 360 every time after you do a throw in the corner timed so that it happens at almost the end of a whiffed throw. If you see the opponent backdash, press another 360 then p or ppp to get either 720 if you have it or only an spd if you don’t. If you see the opponent jump, do lariat or cr. strong or standing jab or whatever the appropriate antiair is for that character. If the throw connects, neithr your command grab nor your lariat will come out, so you don’t really have to be concerned with that outcome. If something else happens, like you get hit out of your throw or the opponent teleports out, then oh well, don’t do the second 360+ppp or the ppp.
-----Where: When you have the opponent cornered and the opponent has a backdash that lasts at least 26 frames. If you don’t have super or ultra, don’t do this on characters with backdashes of 26 frames, it will only work on characters with backdashes of 27 frames.

Unthrowable lariat
-----What: This is Gief’s most useful application for the unthrowable special trick described above. The name describes this move pretty well; it just takes your lariat, which is normally 100% throwable, and makes its startup frames unthrowable. Unfortunately, it also makes your lariat lose to meaty attacks, since you have to press up before pressing lariat.
-----How: Press up and then ppp/kkk. You have to wait a split second between up and the buttons, sorta the same timing as with kara canceling. If you’re doing this on your own wakeup, make sure you press up first, and make sure that the reversal message doesn’t show up, because that means you inputted the ppp/kkk part of the motion too early.
-----Where: This isn’t actually very useful because Gief generally has better ways to predictively escape and punish grabs. The most useful situation is against Fuerte’s run-grabs, but again, it’s not very important.

Handy guides to what works on which characters

Usefulness of ex spd
EX spd has less range than jab spd and does less damage than fierce spd, and has more startup than Gief’s other command grabs, but its post-grab positioning is much much better. These are the characters against whom ex spd gives a substantially better meaty situation.
-----Yes: Abel, Cammy, Claw, Dan, Dhalsim, Fei, Gen w/o meter, Honda, Rufus, Sakura, Viper, Zangief
-----Arguable (yes but meter might be too important): Akuma, Chun, Guile, Ken, Ryu, Sagat, Seth
-----Arguable (advantage might not be big enough): Boxer (allows safe jump on close side)
-----No: Blanka (don’t get better option), Dictator (don’t get better option), Fuerte (already have best option), Gen w/ meter (he’s just gonna escape anyway), Rose (don’t get better option)

Characters who get hit by far standing jab when crouching
------Yes: Abel, Dictator, Fei, Fuerte, Gen, Gouken, Rose, Sagat, Sakura, Zangief
------Unreliable: Boxer, Claw, Dan, Guile, Rufus, Ryu, Seth, Viper
------No: Akuma, Blanka, Cammy, Honda, Ken

Characters who get hit by meaty cr. jab o-s sweepRedo these cause I was clearly wrong?
These are the results of testing point blank cr. jab o-s sweep against opponents’ wakeup backdashes. In cases where characters get hit by both the regular and down-toward sweeps, I only listed them under regular sweeps because regular sweeps are more useful.
-----Point blank range
----------Down-toward sweep: Blanka, Chun, Dhalsim, Fei, Gouken, Guile, Honda, Ken, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Viper, Zangief
----------Doesn’t work on: Akuma, Boxer, Cammy, Claw, Dan, Dictator, Fuerte, Gen, Rose, Rufus, Seth
-----Post spd range: Doesn’t work on anyone
-----O-s cr. mk on characters who sweep doesn’t work on: Cammy

Characters who get hit by throw to command grab when backdashing in the cornerUltra requires opponent’s backdash to be 26 frames or longer and spd requires 27 frames or longer
-----720: Blanka, Dan, Dhalsim, Dictator, Fei, Gen, Guile, Honda, Ken, Rufus, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Viper, Zangief
-----720 or spd: Dhalsim, Zangief
-----No: Abel, Akuma, Boxer, Cammy, Chun, Claw, Fuerte, Gouken, Rose, Seth

Characters who can be mixed up after neutral throw by regular/short jump splash mixup
-----Immediate jump: Abel, Akuma, Blanka, Boxer, Cammy, Chun, Claw, Dan, Dictator, Dhalsim, Fei, Fuerte, Gen, Guile, Ken, Rose, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Viper
-----Step toward then jump: Honda
-----Doesn’t work: Rufus, Seth, Zangief

Characters who can be mixed up after 360k by regular/short jump mixup
-----Immediate jump: Dan, Fei, Rufus, Sakura
-----Step toward then jump: Abel, Akuma, Blanka, Boxer, Cammy, Chun, Claw, Dictator, Dhalsim, Fuerte, Gen, Guile, Honda, Ken, Rose, Ryu, Viper
-----Doesn’t work: Sagat, Seth, Zangief

Characters whose supers can be beaten on reaction
-----By ex hand: Abel, Boxer, Cammy, Dan, Dictator, Dhalsim, Fei, Fuerte, Gouken, Guile, Rose, Rufus, Ryu, Sakura, Seth, Viper
-----By punch lariat: Gen p, Honda, Rose, Ryu, Seth, Viper
-----By jumping: Boxer, Fei, Honda
-----By command grab: Seth
-----Trades: Dan (ex hand)
-----Can’t: Akuma, Blanka, Chun, Ken, Sagat

Characters whose ultras can be beaten on reaction
-----By ex hand: Abel, Blanka, Boxer, Cammy, Chun, Dan, Dictator, Dhalsim, Fei, Gouken, Guile, Honda, Rose, Rufus, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Seth, Viper
-----By p lariat: Dhalsim, Gen p, Honda, Ryu
-----By k lariat: Viper
-----By jumping: Abel, Akuma, Boxer, Cammy, Dan, Dhalsim, Fei, Fuerte, Gen, Honda, Rose, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Viper
-----By command grab: Dhalsim
-----Trades: None
-----Can’t: Ken, Zangief

Characters whose dashes after focus canceled special attacks can be punished: Focus attack dash canceling a special move takes at least 3 additional frames, so all such dashes effectively recover at least 3 frames slower than usual (it can take longer if the opponent doesn’t use perfect timing, which is likely in a real match). Dash canceling out of a focus attack, however, actually decreases the recovery of a dash by 1 frame. For the character-specific sections, I’ll denote this by decreasing the listed blockstun of a special move by 3 frames and increasing the listed blockstun of a focus attack by 1 frame. If the blockstun of a move is greater than the recovery of the dash it’s canceled into, then that dash is safe; if the blockstun is smaller, then the dash is punishable. For moves with varying blockstun based on the strength of the button used, I’ll only list the blockstun of the strength that does the greatest stun. Note also that focus dash canceling out of a special move takes a minimum of 3 extra frames but can take longer than that if the opponent doesn’t use perfect timing. Here I’m assuming that they’re using perfect timing, but in reality you’ll probably be able to punish more things than just the ones listed here.
-----Toward dashes
----------By short xx ex hand (-3): Blanka ball, Blanka lv1 focus, Boxer tap, Claw lv1 focus, Dan lv1 focus, Dhalsim flame, Dhalsim lv1 focus, Dhalsim lv2 focus, Gen lv1 focus, Guile lv1 focus, Honda lv1 focus, Rose lv1 focus, Rufus messiah kick lk ender, Rufus tornado, Rufus lv1 focus, Viper lv1 focus, Zangief green hand, Zangief ex green hand, Zangief lv1 focus, Zangief lv2 focus
----------By spd/360k (-2): Blanka ball, Blanka lv1 focus, Boxer tap, Boxer lv1 focus, Cammy lv1 focus, Claw lv1 focus, Dan lv1 focus, Dhalsim flame, Dhalsim lv1 focus, Dhalsim lv2 focus, Gen lv1 focus, Guile flash kick, Guile lv1 focus, Honda hands, Honda headbutt, Honda lv1 focus, Ken lv1 focus, Rose lv1 focus, Rufus messiah kick lk ender, Rufus tornado, Rufus lv1 focus, Ryu lv1 focus, Sagat lv1 focus, Sakura lv1 focus, Seth lv1 focus, Viper knuckle, Viper seismo, Viper lv1 focus, Zangief green hand, Zangief ex green hand, Zangief lv1 focus, Zangief lv2 focus
----------By super/ultra (-1): Akuma dragon punch, Akuma lv1 focus, Blanka ball, Blanka lv1 focus, Boxer dash punch, Boxer tap, Boxer lv1 focus, Cammy lv1 focus, Claw lv1 focus, Dan lv1 focus, Dhalsim flame, Dhalsim lv1 focus, Dhalsim lv2 focus, Dictator lv1 focus, Fei lv1 focus, Gen lv1 focus, Guile flash kick, Guile lv1 focus, Honda hands, Honda headbutt, Honda lv1 focus, Ken dragon punch, Ken lv1 focus, Rose lv1 focus, Rufus messiah kick lk ender, Rufus tornado, Rufus lv1 focus, Ryu dragon punch, Ryu lv1 focus, Sagat uppercut, Sagat tiger knee, Sagat lv1 focus, Sakura lv1 focus, Seth lv1 focus, Viper knuckle, Viper seismo, Viper lv1 focus, Zangief green hand, Zangief ex green hand, Zangief lv1 focus, Zangief lv2 focus


#2

Best options against each character
For each character I’m listing Zangief’s best meaty option or options and how they deal with your opponent’s wakeup options. Against some characters there are two or three good meaty options with different uses, so for those I’m separating the meaties with semicolons and doing the same for how they deal with the opponent’s wakeup options. I’m also listing a bunch of other stuff, including your best options if the opponent quickstands, your best options after landing a grab, whether o-s sweep works, whether ex spd is useful, whether ultra is guaranteed after the opponent backdashes away from a throw in the corner, the best ways to punish focus attack cancels and other punishable moves, and a few extra comments. For punishers, I’m listing your best option first followed by other good options in order of approximate descending usefulness.

Abel. Bustabust
-----Best meaty: Crossup safe jump splash cr. short o-s ex spd/720; Regular safe jump splash/headbutt cr. short o-s ex spd/720
----------Ex roll: ex spd/720 grabs it; ex spd/720 grabs it
----------Ex change of direction: Loses to short or blocked; Loses to short
----------Ex tornado: Loses to splash; Loses to reversal splash
----------Ex falling sky: Loses to splash or trades with splash in Gief’s favor; Loses to splash or trades with splash in Gief’s favor
----------Super: Loses to crossup splash; Whiffs under non-crossup splash
----------Ultra: Escapes but easily punishable; Escapes but easily punishable
----------EX cod to tornado: Loses to short; Loses to short
----------EX cod to ex roll: Escapes: Escapes
----------EX cod to ex wheel: Hits short but punishable on block; Hits short but punishable on block
----------Ex cod to super: Beats splash; Beats splash
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to short; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short; Loses to short
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Jump splash/mk cr. short o-s ex spd/720; Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash cr. short o-s ex
----------Regular spd: Jab hand or st roundhouse over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash cr. short o-s ex spd/720
----------360k: Jump splash/mk cr. short o-s ex spd/720; Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash cr. short o-s ex
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Regular
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 16f; Back 25f
----------Change of direction (21f of blockstun): Toward no (+5); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f of blockstun): Toward no (0); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f of blockstun): Toward no (+6); Back
-----Best way to punish
----------Command grab
---------------I jumped up: 720, up+fierce headbutt to cr. short xx ex hand
---------------I’m on ground out of range: Far standing short xx ex hand
----------Change of direction: Ex 360k after first hit
----------Wheel kick: Ex hand on reaction; if done too close, spd on block
----------Ex wheel: Ex hand on reaction; if done too close, 720 on block
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; 720, mash 360k
----------Ultra: Ex hand, punch lariat, or jump on reaction; 720, ex spd
-----Comments: These meaty options are hard to time. If you’re doing the non-crossup version, you have to time it to hit a little after Abel wakes up so that you won’t fall through the invincibility of ex tornado and get grabbed, but also not so late that you’ll get hit by ex cod or his very fast focus attack or miss grabbing his roll. If you’re doing the crossup version, you have to time it late enough so that Abel can’t roll behind you and escape, but not so late that you’ll get hit by cod or his focus. There are windows where both of these are doable, they’re just not easy to find. But don’t worry too much, because while technically some of Abel’s ex cod kara cancel moves beat your stuff, they’re really really hard to do and unlikely to expect in a real match. Ex falling ksy technically trades with splash sometimes in that it knocks you out of the air, but you take no damage while Abel takes significant damage, so it’s really not an option for him.

Akuma.
-----Best meaty: Knees at the back of his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------Lp, mp dp: Loses to knees
----------Fierce dp: Loses to knees
----------Ex dp: Whiffs through, hand over
----------All teleports: Whiffs through, hand over
----------Super: Loses to knees
----------Ultra: Loses to knees
----------Backdash: Loses to knees
----------Focus attack: Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Knees at back of head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand; Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short fierce splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand or st roundhouse over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand jump meaty knees at back of head cr. jab o-s jab hand
----------360k: Knees at back of head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand; Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short fierce splash cr. jab
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives big advantage but meter very important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 25f
----------Dragon punch (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back no
-----Best ways to punish
----------Cr. roundhouse: Short xx ex hand
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat, focus, short jump over
----------Dragon punch: buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Lk-mk hurricane: 360k
----------Hk-ex hurricane: 720 only
----------Super: Safe if done point blank, if far jump to 720, 360k, or ex spd
----------Ultra: Safe if done point blank, if far jump to 720, 360k, or ex spd
-----Comments: The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Akuma’s dragon punches Akuma can recover in time to do something before you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if he goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if he goes for dragon punch, your input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of his dragon punch. As for these post-normal/360k options, realize that the set after the semicolon are unsafe, but that mixup is so strong that it’s still reasonable to try sometimes. In order to make sure that your o-s jab hand tracks his teleport, you need to press the jab button for the green hand a little later than in most o-s’s. The reason is that you want Gief to wait until Akuma has actually teleported before pressing the jab, since only after Akuma teleports can the game know which direction it should make Gief move in.

Blanka.
-----Best meaty: Cross over before he gets up, cr. jab o-s dt sweep; Cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------Ex up ball: Hits, kara hand; Hits, kara hand
----------Horizontal ball: Can’t; Loses to jab
----------Back hop: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Super: Can’t; Beats jab
----------Ultra: Can’t; Beats jab
----------Backdash: Sweep; Sweep
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short empty jump cr. short o-s dt sweep or regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------Ex spd: Fierce hand cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short o-s dt sweep or regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s dt sweep
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: No, don’t get better option
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 21f; Back 26f
----------Crouch hp (18f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Horizontal ball (14f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-7); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-5); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+1)
-----Best ways to punish
----------Up ball: kara hand (works on hit too)
----------Horizontal ball: if block standing, kara hand
----------Electricity: safe on block
----------Super: Block then ex hand if he holds it; step toward 360k, buffer 360 out of blockstun step toward 720
----------Ultra: Low block then ex hand before high hit to escape; step toward 360k, buffer 360 out of blockstun step toward 720
-----Comments: Blanka gets up really late, so time your meaties late.

Boxer/Balrog.
-----Best meaty: Cross over before he gets up, cr. short; Safe jump splash/headbutt either side cr. short o-s ex hand; Cr. short
----------Regular headbutt: Loses to short; Whiffs through, ex hand, recover at same time; Loses to short, continue combo
----------Ex headbutt: Block, punish; Whiffs through, ex hand, recover at same time; Block, punish
----------Ex dash punch: Can’t; Block, punish; Beats short
----------Super: Can’t; Block; Block
----------Ultra: Can’t; Block; Block
----------Backdash: Escapes; Hit by hand; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to short; Loses to short; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Escapes; Crossup loses to jab, non-crossup escapes; Escapes
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash o-s ex hand
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash o-s ex hand
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash o-s ex hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: Gives meaty advantage, but may not be big enough
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 24f
----------Dash straight (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Dash overhead (19f): Toward no (+1); Back
----------Turn around punch (14f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-4); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Dash straight: Jab spd if done too close
----------Ex dash straight: Jab spd
----------Dash low: Safe
----------Ex dash low: Safe
----------Dash kick: Jab spd
----------Ex dash kick: 720
----------Dash overhead: Jab spd
----------Ex dash overhead: Jab spd
----------Dash knockdown: Jab spd
----------Ex dash knockdown: Safe
----------Turn around punch: Jab spd
----------Headbutt: 360k
----------Super: Ex hand or jump on reaction; wait until end, buffer 360 out of blockstun into 720, ex spd, fierce spd
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump on reaction; after 4th swing, 720, 360k, ex spd
-----Comments: For some reason Boxer pushes you away as he wakes up, making your meaties less effective. To get the closest meaties, you have to keep walking forward while he gets up.

Cammy
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash cr. short; Knees right on her head (cr. short o-s throw)
----------Regular dp: Block; Loses to knees or whiffs through
----------Ex dp: Block; Loses to knees or whiffs through
----------Ex backfist: Escapes, but punishable; Whiffs through
----------Super: Block; Whiffs through
----------Ultra: Block; Whiffs through
----------Backdash: Loses to jab; Blocks jab hand
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, ?
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to meaty knees on her head cr. short o-s throw
----------360k: Step toward regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No, but cr. mk works instead
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 22f
----------Dragon punch (17): Toward ultra/super (-1)
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Dragon punch: Fierce hand, ex hand, step toward st. short xx ex hand
----------Hooligan: Unthrowable lariats
----------Drill: Safe at max range, otherwise spd
----------Backfist: Lariat on reaction; safe on block
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; step toward st. short xx ex hand
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump on reaction; step toward st. short xx ex hand
-----Comments: The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Cammy’s dragon punches Cammy can recover from them in time to do something when you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if she goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if she goes for dragon punch, that input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of her dragon punch. This safe jump is extremely hard to time, so depend more on option #2.

Chun. Dae
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash/headbutt either side to cr. short; Safe jump splash either side to cr. short o-s dt sweep
----------Ex sbk: Block, punish; Beats sweep
----------Super: Escapes but easily punishable or trades in Gief’s favor; Escapes but easily punishable or trades in Gief’s favor
----------Ultra: Escapes but easily punishable; Escapes but easily punishable
----------Backdash: Escapes; Swept
----------Focus attack: Loses to short; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: None
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short safe splash o-s ex hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Walk forward safe jump fierce splash cr. short
----------360k: Step toward regular/short jump splash o-s ex hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives big advantage but meter very important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 15f; Back 22f
----------Hazan Shu (17f): No (+2); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): No (+1); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): No (+7); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jump back rh instant overhead: Ex spd whiffs through it; early ex hand on hit or block
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat, focus, short jump over
----------Legs: Safe
----------Sbk: 360k if close, st. short xx ex hand if far
----------Super: dash toward 720, 360k
----------Ultra: Ex hand on reaction; mash 720 or 360k after starting to block
-----Comments: If you hit crouching Chun with fierce splash, she’ll duck your follow-up crouching jab because her hit animation is so weird. Make sure you do crouching short instead.

Claw/Vega. Shack
-----Best meaty: Splash either side/headbutt/jump mk cr. short o-s jab hand; cr. jab
----------Kickflip: Loses to splash; Loses to jabs
----------Backflip: Whiffs through, hand over; Escape
----------Ultra: Loses to splash; Loses to jab
----------Backdash: Loses to splash or jab; Escape
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Escape
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash o-s ex hand
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Walk toward jump splash cr. short o-s jab hand
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash o-s ex hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 20f; Back 22f
----------Roll (20f): Toward no (0); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-4); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+2); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jump back fierce instant overhead: Ex spd whiffs through it; reversal ex hand on block (he can’t do this without hs claw)
----------Roll: Safe
----------Flipkick: 360k, neutral throw, lariat
----------Punch backflip: Ex hand, hand to move closer
----------Kick backflip: Ex hand, hand to move closer
----------Walldive: Focus, lariat, headbutt, cr. strong; ex hand or jab spd on block
----------Punch dive: Ex hand (even on hit)
----------Ex punch dive: Ex hand
----------Ultra: Walk up jab spd, ex hand
-----Comments:


This Feels Different... OLD Abel Match Theory Thread
#3

Best options against each character continued
For each character I’m listing Zangief’s best meaty option or options and how they deal with your opponent’s wakeup options. Against some characters there are two or three good meaty options with different uses, so for those I’m separating the meaties with semicolons and doing the same for how they deal with the opponent’s wakeup options. I’m also listing a bunch of other stuff, including your best options if the opponent quickstands, your best options after landing a grab, whether o-s sweep works, whether ex spd is useful, whether ultra is guaranteed after the opponent backdashes away from a throw in the corner, the best ways to punish focus attack cancels and other punishable moves, and a few extra comments. For punishers, I’m listing your best option first followed by other good options in order of approximate descending usefulness.

Dan.
-----Best meaty: Splash right on his head cr. short o-s jab hand
----------Regular dp: Loses to splash
----------Ex dp: Whiffs under splash, hand over
----------Super: Beats splash but juggles for tiny damage, leaves Dan very punishable
----------Ultra: Whiffs under, easily punished
----------Backdash: Loses to splash
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Escapes
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to meaty splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand
----------360k: Regular/short jump splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 21f; Back 26f
----------Dragon punch (x): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-5); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+1); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough
----------Dragon punch: buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Dan kick grounded
---------------Short: Safe
---------------Mk/hk: 360+k
---------------Ex: 720 if far, 360+k if close
----------Dan kick airborn lk: Lariat can trade; safe on block if done at Gief’s head level or lower
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction trades in Gief’s favor; mash 720, 360k, ex spd
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump on reaction; 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat
-----Comments:

Dhalsim.
-----Best meaty: Early crossup splash cr. short o-s jab hand; Early regular splash/headbutt cr. short o-s jab hand; Cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------Teleport away: Whiffs through, hand over; Whiffs through, hand over; Escapes but Gief moves forward
----------Teleport close: Whiffs through, hand over; Whiffs through, hand over; Swept if kick teleport, escapes if punch teleport
----------Super: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Beats jab
----------Ultra: Mash ex spd; Mash ex spd; Mash ex spd
----------Backdash: Loses to short; Loses to short; Loses to sweep
----------Focus attack: Loses to short; Loses to short; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short; Loses to short; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s jab hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short o-s jab hand
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, free meaty without super/ultra
----------Ex spd: Walk toward jump mk cr. short o-s jab hand
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
----------360k: Step toward regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s jab hand or regular/short empty jump cr. short o-s jab hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: yes
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 32f; Back 29f
----------Flame (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-15); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-16); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-10); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jump back fierce instant overhead: Mp hand to gain ground, ex hand or lariat to punish if close enough to corner
----------Antiairs
---------------Back+rh: Short empty jump
---------------Back+mp: Don’t jump there
---------------Standing rh: Early jump mk
---------------Jump mp: Early jump lp, focus through fb instead
---------------Down+fierce or slide: Empty jump
---------------Ex up flame: Trade with jump mk
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; jab spd if close enough, otherwise safe
----------Ultra: Lariat, 720, ex spd, ex hand, normal throw, or jump on reaction, otherwise safe
-----Comments: In order to make sure that your o-s jab hand tracks his teleport, you need to press the jab button for the green hand a little later than in most o-s’s. The reason is that you want Gief to wait until Dhalsim has actually teleported before pressing the jab, since only after Sim teleports can the game know which direction it should make Gief move in.

Dictator/Bison
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash cr. short; Cross over before he gets up, cr. short o-s cr. mk; Cr. short
----------Ex scissors: Block; Can’t; Block
----------Ex psycho: Block; Can’t; Block
----------Ex stomp: Step toward, cr. mk, or block on reaction; Whiffs over cr. mk; Step toward, cr. mk, or block on reaction
----------Ex devil’s reverse: Step toward or cr. mk on reaction; Whiffs over cr. mk; Step toward
----------Teleport away: Escapes, walk up; Escapes but Gief moves forward; Escapes, walk up
----------Teleport close: Whiffs, punish; Whiffs, punish; Whiffs, punish
----------Super: Block; Can’t; Block
----------Ultra: Block; Can’t; Block
----------Backdash: Escapes; Escapes but Gief moves forward; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Escapes; Escapes
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s cr. mk or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, free meaty without meter
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash cr. jab o-s cr. mk
----------360k: Step toward regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s cr. mk or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: No, doesn’t give better option
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 17f; Back 25f
----------Psycho crusher (17f): Toward no (0); Back
----------EX psycho crusher (21f): Toward no (+4); Back
----------Scissors (17f): Toward no (0); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+5); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Lk scissors: Safe
----------Mk, hk, ex scissors: St. short xx ex hand
----------Psycho: Ex hand if close, safe if far
----------Stomp: Dash back 720 or 360k, early cr. strong
----------Devil’s reverse: Cr. mk to move forward
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; ex hand on block
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump back (to instant command grab) on reaction; dash 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, lariat on block
-----Comments:

Fei.
-----Best meaty: Splash right on his head cr. jab o-s punch lariat; Safe jump cr. jab o-s punch lariat
----------Regular dp: Loses to splash; Block
----------Ex dp: Loses to splash; Block
----------Rh chicken wing: Loses to lariat; Loses to lariat
----------Ex chicken wing: Loses to lariat; Loses to splash or lariat, or escapes and Gief is safe
----------Super: Block or whiff under and hand over to punish (lariat doesn’t come out); Block
----------Ultra: Block or whiff under and hand over to punish (lariat doesn’t come out); Block
----------Backdash: Loses to lariat; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to splash on his head cr. jab o-s punch lariat
----------360k: Regular/short jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 17f; Back 26f
----------Dragon punch (17f): Safe (0)
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+5); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Dragon punch: buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat
----------Lk, mk chicken wing: Ex hand on reaction; 360k on block
----------Hk, ex chicken wing: Ex hand on reaction; Safe on block
----------Rekkas: Safe if too far, jab spd if close
----------Super: Ex hand or jump back command grab on reaction; mash 720, 360k, ex spd, spd
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump back command grab on reaction; mash 720, 360k, ex spd, spd
-----Comments: This safe jump is extremely hard to time. Depend more on option #2.

Fuerte.
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash either side cr. jab; Cr. jab
----------Guacamole: Whiffs over, punish; Whiffs over, punish
----------Ex run: Escapes; Escapes
----------Super: Block, punish; Beats jab
----------Ultra: Hold up; Hold up
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, free meaty without super
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to safe jump splash cr. jab
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short jump splash cr. jab
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: No, already have good option
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 16f; Back 19f
----------Quesadilla bomb (17f): Toward no (+1); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward no (0); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+5); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Guacamole: Kick lariat, ex spd, neutral throw
----------Run splash: Backdash or ex hand before; jab spd on block
----------Run slide: Ex hand or kick lariat before; jab spd on block
----------Run mid kick: Ex hand or lariat before; safe on block
----------Run grabs: Unthrowable lariat, backdash, jump before
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; mash 720, 360k, ex spd, spd
----------Ultra: Hold up on reaction; ex hand if far, up+fierce headbutt close mk xx ex hand if close
-----Comments:

Gen? Yeb; timing the o-s hand to follow Gen’s ex walldive is really hard, too hard to be practical?
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash either side cr. jab o-s hand; Safe jump splash either side cr. jab; Far standing strong
----------Hands: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Loses to strong
----------Antiair kick: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Loses to strong
----------Roll: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Loses to strong
----------Ex walldive: Whiffs over, jab hand over, punish if no wall attack; Whiffs over, punish if wall attack; Escapes strong
----------Punch super: Block, punish; Block, punish; Hits strong
----------Punch ultra: Block, punish; Block, punish; Hits strong
----------Kick super: Whiffs through, punish; Whiffs through, punish; Whiffs over, punish
----------Kick ultra: Whiffs through, punish; Whiffs through, punish; Whiffs over, punish
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Focuses through, escapes
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Escapes
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash cr. jab (o-s hand) or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, ?
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to safe jump splash cr. jab (o-s hand)
----------360k: Step toward regular/short jump splash cr. jab (o-s hand) or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful
----------Gen has no meter: Yes
----------Gen has meter: Arguable, only gives a chance at the meaty o-s hand mixup
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 19f; Back 27f
----------Slaps (?):
----------Roll (?):
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+3); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Hands: Safe
----------Antiair kick: 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat
----------Roll: Safe
----------Walldive that whiffs: Ex hand
----------Walldive that touches Gief: 720 or 360k on block
----------Punch super: Punch lariat on reaction; jump 720 or 360k if lp super, mp hand to 720 or 360k if mp/hp super
----------Punch ultra: Punch lariat or jump back command grab on reaction; dash 720, 360k rbg, or ex hand on block
----------Kick super: Ex hand if far, buffer 720, 360k, ex spd if close
----------Kick ultra: Ex hand if far, buffer 720, 360k, ex spd if close
-----Comments: In deciding whether to do meaty option #1 or #2, that is whether to do an o-s hand, that’s kind of a guessing game you have to play. Once Gen realizes that you can catch his empty wall jump, he might try to attack out of the wall jump next time, and that’ll beat your green hand. But if you don’t do a green hand and he attacks off the wall, you can punish him for it (either with ex hand against a walldive that doesn’t touch you or with spd against a walldive that does touch you). If you don’t do a green hand and he doesn’t attack off the wall, he’s safe. So this option-select gives you a chance at further damage, whereas otherwise Gen would escape for free. Not as solid as some of Gief’s meaty options against other characters, but still better than nothing. In order to make sure that your o-s jab hand tracks his ex walldive, you need to press the jab button for the green hand a little later than in most o-s’s. The reason is that you want Gief to wait until Gen has actually started flying towards a wall before pressing the jab, since only after Gen starts flying can the game know which direction it should make Gief move in.

Gouken
-----Best meaty: Crouching jab o-s sweep; Cr. short o-s sweep; Throw
----------Low counter: Loses to jab; Beats short; Loses to throw
----------High counter: Beats jab; Loses to short; Loses to throw
----------Ex counter: Beats jab; Beats short; Loses to throw
----------Regular hurricane: Loses to jab; Whiffs over short; Loses to throw
----------Ex hurricane: Beats jab; Whiffs over short; Beats throw
----------Ex demon flip: Whiffs over; Whiffs over; Whiffs over
----------Super: Block; Block; Beats throw
----------Ultra: Block; Block; Beats throw
----------Backdash: Swept; Swept; Escapes throw
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to short; Loses to throw
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to short; Loses to throw
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Far standing jab; Cr. jab o-s sweep; Throw
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, ?
----------Ex spd: Far standing jab; Cr. jab o-s sweep; Throw
----------360k: Far standing jab; Cr. jab o-s sweep; Throw
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Regular
-----Ex spd useful: No, don’t get better option since doing a jumping meaty is unhelpful
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 16f; Back 25f
----------Hurricane (16+): Safe
----------Rush punch (32f): Toward no (+6 to +16); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward no (0); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+6); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jab fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat, punch lariat, or focus through, short jump over
----------Strong fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, focus through, punch lariat, or walk up ex hand
----------Fierce fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, walk up ex hand
----------Hurricane: Buffer into 720, level 3 focus to 360k, jump headbutt to close standing mk xx fierce for stun
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; buffer into 720, level 3 focus to 360k, jumping headbutt to close standing mk xx fierce hand
----------Ultra: Ex hand on reaction; buffer into 720, level 3 focus to 360k, jumping headbutt to close standing mk xx fierce hand
-----Comments: You just have to guess against Gouken, there’s no safe option. In general it’s better to attack his wakeup from the ground. If you jump, Gouken only has to guess between doing a counter to beat your attack and doing something else to deal with your empty jump into whatever. If you stay grounded, he has to guess between low, high, and throw, where with lows you’ll be safe from his non-counter options. You can avoid his ex hurricane on his wakeup if you do a crossup, but if you do a regular jump in, your jump has to be timed as a safe jump to avoid the ex hurricane. I thought at first about always doing safe jump timing and making Gouken guess between air attack, empty jump into low, and empty jump into throw, but in reality safe jump timing means that your air attack hits so low to the ground that it loses to Gouken’s low counter. In other words, if Gouken sees you safe jumping, it’s the same mixup as not safe jumping: attack or not attack, where the regular jump attack loses to high counter and the safe jump attack loses to low counter. This is just a worse version of the guessing games you get by using a grounded mixup.

Guile.
-----Best meaty: Crossup splash cr. short o-s jab hand; Noncrossup splash close to his head cr. short
----------Flash kick: Loses to splash; Loses to splash
----------Ex flash kick: Whiffs under splash, jab hand over; Loses to splash
----------Super: Whiffs under splash; Trades, punish
----------Ultra: Whiffs under splash; Trades, punish
----------Backdash: Escapes; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to short; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short; Loses to short
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short jump splash cr. short (o-s hand if crossup) or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to early crossup splash cr. short o-s jab hand
----------360k: Step toward regular/short jump splash cr. short (o-s hand if crossup) or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives good advantage but meter very important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 19f; Back 26f
----------Flash kick (17): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+3); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Cr. roundhouse after first hit: focus dash into 720, ex 360k, ex spd, ex hand
----------Flash kick: 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; dash 720, 360k
----------Ultra: Ex hand on reaction; mash 720 or 360k immediately after blocking
-----Comments:

Honda.
-----Best meaty: Cross over before he gets up, cr. jab; Safe jump splash/headbutt either side cr. jab; Cr. jab
----------Headbutt: Can’t; Block; Loses to jab
----------Ex headbutt: Can’t; Block; Block
----------Short buttslam: Block, punish; Block, punish; Block, punish
----------Mk/hk buttslam: Whiffs over, punish; Whiffs over, punish; Whiffs over, punish
----------Ex buttslam: Whiffs over, punish; Block, punish; Whiffs over jab
----------Super: Can’t; Block, punish; Block, punish
----------Ultra: Can’t; Block, punish; Block, punish
----------Backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #2, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, free meaty without meter
----------Ex spd: Walk toward safe jump splash cr. jab
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Regular
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 19f; Back 27f
----------Hands (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Headbutt (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+3); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Controllable neutral jump fierce: Cr. mk under to 720 or 360k, far standing roundhouse
----------Jump back rh overhead:
----------Jab/strong headbutt: Safe
----------Fierce headbutt: Ex hand
----------Ex headbutt: Safe
----------Any buttslam: 720, jab spd (max range only punishable by jab)
----------Super: Punch lariat or jump on reaction; jab spd or low short xx ex hand
----------Ultra: Ex hand, punch lariat, or jump back ex hand on reaction; buffer 720 out of blockstun, fierce spd, low short xx ex hand
-----Comments:


#4

Best options against each character continued
For each character I’m listing Zangief’s best meaty option or options and how they deal with your opponent’s wakeup options. Against some characters there are two or three good meaty options with different uses, so for those I’m separating the meaties with semicolons and doing the same for how they deal with the opponent’s wakeup options. I’m also listing a bunch of other stuff, including your best options if the opponent quickstands, your best options after landing a grab, whether o-s sweep works, whether ex spd is useful, whether ultra is guaranteed after the opponent backdashes away from a throw in the corner, the best ways to punish focus attack cancels and other punishable moves, and a few extra comments. For punishers, I’m listing your best option first followed by other good options in order of approximate descending usefulness.

Ken. BlueFlamingo
-----Best meaty: Knees just behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------Jab, strong dp: Loses to knees
----------Fierce dp: Loses to knees or whiffs under to jab hand over
----------Ex dp: Whiffs under knees, jab hand over
----------Super: Loses to knees
----------Ultra: Whiffs through knees
----------Backdash: Loses to knees or hand
----------Focus attack: Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Knees just behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand; Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to knees just behind his head o-s jab hand to cr. jab
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short splash cr. jab; Knees just behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Regular
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives good advantage but meter very important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 27f
----------Dragon punch (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat or focus through, short jump over
----------Dragon punch: Buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Hurricane: Crouch under into lariat, 360k after blocking the whole thing
----------Super: Mash 720 or 360k immediately after blocking
----------Ultra: Buffer into 720, level 3 focus to 360k, jump headbutt to close standing mk xx fierce for stun
-----Comments: The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Ken’s dragon punches Ken can recover from them in time to do something when you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if he goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if he goes for dragon punch, that input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of his dragon punch. As for these post-normal/360k options, realize that the set after the semicolon are unsafe, but that mixup is so strong that it’s still reasonable to try sometimes.

Rose. acktessa
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash/headbutt either side cr. short; Cr. jab
----------Ex drill: Block; Block
----------Antiair grab: Whiffs over; Whiffs over
----------Super: Block; Block
----------Ultra: Block; Block
----------Backdash: Escapes; Escapes
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Escapes
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, ?
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash cr. jab
----------360k: Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: No, doesn’t give better option
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 21f; Back 22f
----------Drill (25f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand
----------Reflect (?):
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-5); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+1); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat or focus through, short jump over
----------Ex drill: Ultra, fierce spd
----------Antiair grab: Cr. short xx ex hand, lariat, jab spd
----------Super: Ex hand or punch lariat on reaction; safe on block
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump on reaction; dash 720 or 360k if close enough on block, ex hand if farther, safe if too far
-----Comments: Rose’s close standing mk is invulnerable to throws, but not instantly, so a meaty grab still beats it.

Rufus. AcidicEnema
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash/headbutt either side cr. short; Cr. jab
----------Ex messiah: Block; Block
----------Dragon punch: Whiffs over; Whiffs over
----------Super: Block; Block
----------Ultra: Block; Block
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Loses to jab
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Safe jump splash cr. jab or empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, free meaty without meter
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash cr. jab
----------360k: Regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Regular
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 20f; Back 27f
----------Messiah lk flash kick ender (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back safe
----------Tornado (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-4); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+2); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Messiah: Ex hand just before enders, if doesn’t come out because still in block stun, 720 or 360k
---------------No ender: Loses to ex hand
---------------Lk flash kick immediate: 720, 360k on block
---------------Lk flash kick delayed: Loses to ex hand
---------------Mk sweep: Loses to ex hand
---------------Hk overhead: Whiffs over
----------Dragon punch: Kick lariat, 360k, spd, jump headbutt for stun
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; mash 720 or 360k immediately after blocking
----------Ultra: Ex hand on reaction; mash 720 or 360k on block
-----Comments: Finally, a solution to messiah kick! Rufus can do one of three enders immediately, can choose to delay his enders, or can choose not to do an ender at all. If he chooses any of those options except for immediate lk ender, ex hand wll either beat his choice or whiff harmlessly under it (you’ll be safe, but you also can’t punish him). If he does immediate lk ender, then that keeps you in block stun and you can’t hit him with ex hand. If he does do immediate lk ender, then that’s fully punishable on block, although you should wait to make sure the Rufus player doesn’t fadc back out of danger. You can always do ex hand at the same time, just as the actual messiah kick ends (ie right before the enders), and regardless of what the Rufus player does you’ll always be safe and in most cases you’ll make him eat damage, a knockdown, and meaty games. Ding! Ex messiah solved. If you want you can mix the ex hand up with an instant lariat, which loses to a delayed lk flash kick ender but beats the overhead. This can be nice if your Rufus opponent starts doing the overhead every time, knowing that if you do this ex hand thing he’ll get out for free very time. An occasional lariat against a Rufus who starts doing the overhead every time on block might be a good idea.

Ryu.
-----Best meaty: Knees right behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------Regular dp: Loses to knees
----------Ex dp: Whiffs through knees, jab hand over
----------Super: Loses to knees
----------Ultra: Land, mash punch lariat on reaction (hand doesn’t come out)
----------Backdash: Loses to knees or hand
----------Focus attack: Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Knees behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand; Regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular short jump splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand meaty short knees behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------360k: Knees behind his head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand; Step toward regular/short empty jump cr. short or regular short jump splash cr. jab
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives good advantage but meter extremely important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 27f
----------Dragon punch (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; if far, kick lariat or focus through, short jump over
----------Dragon punch: Buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Hurricane: Crouch under into lariat, 360k after blocking whole thing
----------Ex hurricane: Safe
----------Super: Ex hand or punch lariat on reaction; safe on block
----------Ultra: Ex hand, punch lariat, or jump toward on reaction; ex hand on block if close enough; jump headbutt to close standing mk xx fierce for stun
-----Comments: The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Ryu’s dragon punches Ryu can recover from them in time to do something when you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if he goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if he goes for dragon punch, that input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of his dragon punch. As for these post-normal/360k options, realize that the set after the semicolon are unsafe, but that mixup is so strong that it’s still reasonable to try sometimes.

Sagat.
-----Best meaty: Splash right on his head cr. short o-s jab hand; Safe jump headbutt cr. jab
----------Regular dp: Loses to splash; Blocked
----------Ex dp: Whiffs through splash, jab hand over; Blocked
----------Super: Loses to splash: Beats headbutt
----------Ultra: Whiffs under splash; Blocked
----------Backdash: Loses to splash or jab
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand; Regular short empty jump cr. short or regular/short splash cr. jab
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand
----------360k: Splash on his head cr. jab o-s jab hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives good advantage but meter extremely important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 29f
----------Uppercut (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Tiger knee (17f): Toward ultra/super (-1); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------High tiger shot: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; cr. mk under or focus through
----------Low tiger shot: Ex hand on reaction if close enough; kick lariat or focus through, short jump over
----------Dragon punch: Buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Tiger knee: Safe if does one hit from max range, 360k otherwise
----------Super: Buffer 720 or 360k
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump back on reaction; dash 720 or 360k
-----Comments:

Sakura. BlueFlamingo
-----Best meaty: Safe jump splash/headbutt either side cr. jab; Cr. jab; Cr. jab o-s dt sweep
----------Ex dp: Block; Block; Beats sweep
----------Super: Block; Beats jab; Beats jab
----------Ultra: Block; Block; Block
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Escapes; Sweep
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand, free meaty without meter
----------Ex spd: Walk up safe jump splash cr. jab
----------360k: Regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 26f
----------Dragon punch (x): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, ex spd (-4+); Safe
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Fireball: Ex hand on reaction if close enough
----------Regular dp: Buffer 720 out of block stun or 360k
----------Ex dp: Mash 720 or ex 360k immediately after blocking to catch middle of move
----------Lk hurricane: Safe
----------Mk, hk hurricane: 720 or fierce spd
----------Ex hurricane: Safe
----------Super: Ex hand on reaction; standing short xx ex hand
----------Ultra: Ex hand or jump back command grab on reaction; ultra or fierce spd
-----Comments:

Seth: does he get a free spd after i do knees?
-----Best meaty: Knees at front of his neck (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------Regular dp: Loses to knees
----------Ex dp: Whiffs under knees, hand over
----------Teleport: Whiffs through, hand over
----------Super: Loses to knees
----------Ultra: Whiffs under knees
----------Backdash: Loses to knees
----------Focus attack: Escapes
----------Focus backdash: Loses to short
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Knees at his neck (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------Regular spd: Jab hand or st roundhouse over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to knees at his neck (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
----------360k: Knees at his neck (cr. short o-s throw) o-s jab hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: No
-----Ex spd useful: Arguable, gives good advantage but meter extremely important
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner: No
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 18f; Back 25f
----------Dragon punch (17): Toward ultra/super (-1)
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jump fierce: Max range standing jab, standing strong, jump headbutt
----------Dragon punch: Buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat, jump headbutt for stun
----------Sonic boom: Ex hand on reaction if close enough
----------Back kick: 720 or fierce spd
----------Whiffed spd
---------------I jumped up: If close, up+fierce headbutt, close standing mk xx fierce hand (dizzies); if farther, headbutt, standing short xx ex hand
---------------Out of range: Ex hand or standing short xx ex hand
----------Super: 720, 360k, or punch lariat on reaction; dash 720 or 360k on block
----------Ultra: Ex hand to 720 or 360k on reaction if close enough; ex hand on block if close enough, safe if far
-----Comments: The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Seth’s dragon punches Seth can recover from them in time to do something when you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if he goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if he goes for dragon punch, that input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of his dragon punch. If you do ex hand on reaction to Seth’s ultra close enough, you’ll cancel his ultra out and he’ll just be sitting there waiting to get command grabbed. In order to make sure that your o-s jab hand tracks his teleport, you need to press the jab button for the green hand a little later than in most o-s’s. The reason is that you want Gief to wait until Seth has actually teleported before pressing the jab, since only after Seth teleports can the game know which direction it should make Gief move in.

Viper.
-----Best meaty: Crossup safe jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat; Regular safe jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat; Knees right on her head (cr. short o-s throw) o-s ex hand
----------Fierce knuckle: Loses to splash; Block; Loses to knees
----------Ex burning kick: Block or whiffs under and loses to lariat; Block or whiffs under and trades with lariat in Gief’s favor; Whiffs under knees, loses to or cancels ex hand
----------Ex seismo: Loses to lariat; Loses to lariat; Loses to ex hand
----------Ex seismo fake: Lariat just hangs out there; Lariat just hangs out there; Ex hand is blocked
----------Super: Block; Block; Whiffs under
----------Ultra: Block; Block; Whiffs under
----------Backdash: Loses to splash; Loses to splash; Loses to ex hand
----------Focus attack: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Loses to jab; Loses to jab; Loses to jab
-----Best meaty on quick stand: #1, #2, #3
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat or regular/short empty jump cr. short
----------Regular spd: Jab hand over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand to safe jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat
----------360k: Step toward regular/short safe jump splash cr. jab o-s punch lariat or regular/short empty jump cr. short
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 19f; Back 27f
----------Knuckle (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Seismo (17f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k (-2); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-3); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward no (+3); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Jab/strong knuckle: Jab spd if too close; safe at max range
----------Fierce knuckle: Buffer 720, 360k, ex spd, neutral throw, ex hand, lariat
----------Seismo: Kick lariat through but watch for fakes
----------Ground burning kick:
---------------Lk, mk: Preemptive lariat; safe on block
---------------Hk: Crouch into lariat
---------------Ex: Crouch into lariat, 720 or 360k on block
----------Air burning kick: Preemptive lariat, safe on block
----------Super: Ex hand or punch lariat on reaction; mash 720 or 360k immediately after blocking
----------Ultra: Ex hand, jump to command grab, or kick lariat on reaction; buffer to 720, level 3 focus to 360k
-----Comments: When I say ex burning kick trades with lariat in Gief’s favor, I really mean that. Gief takes about a fireball chip’s worth of damage and Viper loses about a fifth of her life bar. The knees have really short hit and block stun, so when done at the height where they beat Viper’s fierce knuckle Viper can recover from them in time to do something when you land. The cr. short o-s throw means that if she goes for a throw, you’ll tech it. But if she goes for fierce knuckle etc, that input will lose. I have that section in parentheses because you just have to guess whether you should do that input or whether you should block in expectation of her dragon punch. As for these post-normal/360k options, realize that the set after the semicolon are unsafe, but that mixup is so strong that it’s still reasonable to try sometimes.

Zangief.
-----Best meaty: Jump up+fierce headbutt at his shoulder level at max range cr. short o-s ex hand
----------Lariat: Loses to headbutt
----------Ex hand: Loses to ex hand
----------Ex spd: Loses to headbutt
----------Ex 360k: Loses to short
----------Super: Loses to headbutt
----------Ultra: Loses to headbutt
----------Backdash: Loses to ex hand
----------Focus attack: Loses to short
----------Focus backdash: Escape (but take full headbutt stun)
-----Best meaty on quick stand: None
-----Post-throw
----------Neutral throw: Jump up+fierce headbutt at his shoulder level at max range cr. short o-s ex hand
----------Regular spd: Stand roundhouse or walk over, no free meaty
----------Ex spd: Jab hand jump up+fierce headbutt at his shoulder level at max range cr. short o-s ex hand
----------360k: Jump up+fierce headbutt at his shoulder level at max range cr. short o-s ex hand
-----Grounded jab o-s sweep: Down-toward
-----Ex spd useful: Yes
-----Ultra on backdashed throw in corner:
-----Punishability of post-fadc dashes: Toward 26f; Back 26f
----------Green hand (12f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-14); Back
----------Ex green hand (15f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-11); Back
----------Lv1 focus (16f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-10); Back
----------Lv2 focus (22f): Toward ultra/super, spd/360k, cr. short xx ex hand, throw (-4); Back
-----Best ways to punish
----------Whiff command grab
---------------I jumped up: Land with 720, headbutt to cr. short xx ex hand, ex spd
---------------Out of range: Ex hand
----------Lariat: Far standing jab xx ex hand
----------Hand
---------------Whiff: Lariat
---------------Hit without knockdown: Lariat, 720, 360k
---------------Block: Lariat, 720, 360k
-----Comments:


#5

I don’t have access to a console right now, so I’d appreciate it if you guys could test out and answer these questions. I’ll occasionally update this post and make new posts with your responses to these questions as well as some brand new questions.

ANSWERED–Against which characters and in which situations can a neutral jump up+fierce combo punish a whiffed special move (like a dp, flash kick, etc): Not useful

ANSWERED–How well does unthrowable lariat work against the throw at the end of dp fadc throw: Not useful

ANSWERED–If Gouken is close to dizzy and you try up+fierce headbutt and he tries to counter it, will you still stun him: No, take dizzy in focus/counter style moves but can never be fully stunned on that absorbed hit

ANSWERED–How many seconds does a whiffed ultra takes off the clock before Gief is punishable: Just 1 second, useless

ANSWERED–Can Gief focus backdash a blanka ultra and command grab him when he lands: Not practically

ANSWERED–Do mp headbutt and hp headbutt have different hitboxes, like is mp better for hitting attacks in the air and hp better for hitting attacks on the ground: Seems like no difference

ANSWERED–Can you safe jump Sagat’s dp: Yes, but it’s better to outright beat it with splash on his head

–Is all of this info about how up+fierce headbutt deals with the opponent’s wakeup correct? I put characters who sometimes trade or lose in the lose category. By beat I mean both literally beating the opponent’s wakeup options or merely being safe against them.
-----Beat: Abel, Gen, Boxer, Chun, Claw, Dan, Dictator, Fuerte, Honda, Rose, Rufus, Sakura, Seth, Viper, Zangief
-----Trade: Akuma, Claw (ex flipkick), Guile, Ryu (regular dp), Sagat (regular dp)
-----Lose: Blanka, Cammy, Dhalsim (teleport), Fei, Gouken (counter), Ken, Ryu (ex dp), Sagat (ex dp)

–After Seth blocks a meaty knees at the front of his neck, does he get a free spd before I can do anything else?

–Meaty crouching jab option select sweep, does it really work on all these characters? Does regular sweep work on anyone?
-----Regular sweep: anyone?
-----Down-toward sweep: Blanka, Chun, Dhalsim, Fei, Gouken, Guile, Honda, Ken, Ryu, Sagat, Sakura, Viper, Zangief
-----Doesn’t work on: Akuma, Boxer, Cammy, Claw, Dan, Dictator, Fuerte, Gen, Rose, Rufus, Seth

–For the o-s against Gen, is timing the o-s hand to follow Gen’s ex walldive too hard to be practical for you guys?

–Are the following things punishable on block by anything (ie 720, 360, or a normal) after being fadc-ed toward out of?
-----Gen
----------Slaps: (punishable by what, if nothing then say safe)
----------Roll:
-----Rose
----------Reflect:


#6

Nice, keep up the good work. I was just wondering what else I could start incorporating into my game now that im 500 pts away from G1


#7

It’s going to take me some time to fully understand when to use those meaty option selects, great finds UltraDavid.


#8

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH good shit.


#9

Thank you for the hard work. Now to hit training mode…and hit it hard.


#10

Man this is great shit. Perfect! Thanks UD.


#11

Very Cool!

<3 UD

ill try out a few of those commands and report back


#12

hey UD, I was able to do the o-s sweep on balrog after he did wakeup backdash, so I would look into testing that again…maybe it has something to do with balrog pushing you away on his wakeup?


#13

Really? I just tried a few more times and couldn’t get it to work. Are you sure you’re doing the jabs with safe meaty timing, ie as early as possible? Because otherwise it’s not safe.


#14

I don’t have a console, so I guess I’m wrong. Maybe I did do it a little late and just caught him with a counter hit. Oh well.


#15

awesome read Ultra.


#16

Good shit. Going to print this out and give it a read. Thanks, UD.
“Dhalsim
----------Ultra: Mash ex spd; Mash ex spd; Mash ex spd”

This part made me laugh more than it should.


#17

awesome stuff…thanks for putting in the time to write this out for us. i, along with everyone else im sure are very grateful! :sweat:


#18

thanks for this thread man, ill rep you as soon as i can.


#19

Damn, I like that update too.


#20

Wow. I’m having trouble doing gief’s unthrowable lariat. I’m practicing it on El Fuerte, but no luck.