zangief vs guy

zangief

#1

what to do against guy´s elbow drop and flip throw?
is it possible to lariat elbow drop or must it be blocked everytime?
what are the options to avoid flip throw? i tried lariat, headbutt, jump away and backdash but he always seem to grab me somehow?

help would be appreciated


#2

It all depends on how you can block it.

If he’s doing tons of bushin flips, just keep blocking low. The flips only will grab standing opponents. The way his elbow drop works is that if you predict just a standard elbow drop and block it high Guy is at Frame Disadvantage. If you block it crouching, he has mild frame advantage.

You can tell a bushin flip by the sound. It makes a particular “whoosh” noise. Just listen for it.


#3

You can lariat an elbow drop, but you have to 1) do it in a crouching position, so you can let Guy enter your offensive hitbox (the base of an AA Lariat) 2) wait for the elbow drop to actually come out, so Guy can’t grab your Lariat (it’s a throwable standing move, so grab will beat you clean if you use lariat too soon). Those two conditions are kind of connected anyway.

The key to this matchup is to use your pokes like stand mp, mk and stuff to keep Guy on the ground and push him to the corner. Don’t jump on him, he has too many AA (including ex tatsu) to catch you in the air. Also, watch for the runs, as he can attack low, overhead, or just stop and grab, you have to be very careful with that. If you manage to keep him cornered, you’re on you’re way to victory.


#4

Cr.MP


#5

This x a million. You can always see it coming from years away since he sails in the air like an idiot.


#6

My issue with this is once you stuff his elbow with it, a Guy not playing on auto pilot will start to elbow right in front of you instead make you whiff, then punish. If you wait till you recognize the distance, cr. mp can trade or be stuffed depending on input lag/reaction time.


#7

If you can estimate the distance he’ll land (While you yourself not being on autopilot) this won’t be an issue.


#8

Lmao… good luck on the reactions with cr.mp… but what do you do when he starts mixing in ex flip in place of the elbow? Do you cr.mp and get face spiked for 20%? At that point you can’t jump in any direction or dash back or you just get face spiked. I guess there is always the guessing game… just seems like cr.mp leaves you in a situation where you can guess right and hit for a tad of dmg… or guess wrong and get mauled. Better guess right.

Just a bad matchup for gief. Guys cr.hk slide might as well be invincible for all gief can do to stop getting KD’d. Gief has trouble safely getting in w/out using stinkfist… but if guy blocks that… he gets free st.hk to BC for big dmg and a free mixup after. If gief stays back tho… he has no recourse but to repeatedly guess correctly.

Gief big ass sprite also fucks him… guy can do bushin run at him and each of the three options can force a really bad guess… aka you jump as he’s coming… guy can easily react with tap hk and you get AA’d into ex tatsu. If you lariat guy can finish the run with slide or better yet… run stop -> something worse.

If it weren’t for mashing 360’s in… not sure what gief would do vs looping runstop pressure. Besides mash on jab like a jackass… which might not even work anymore in AE as guy lost frames on his cr.lk.

Gief gotta use them godlike normals with great timing i guess. I lol at banking on cr.mp in this matchup but I can’t say I know what else gief could do…


#9

lmao come on now.

A part of Gief’s game is guessing right. Guy can’t just (and won’t just) constantly run stop pressure in our face because Guy’s stop has some recovery. This isn’t Elf.

As far as a ground game, we beat Guy. I’m pretty sure at least. His offense is so unsafe since it relies heavily on the target combo.

If you can’t reaction block slide, though, idk what to tell you.


#10

I main Guy one thing I always do against Gief thats a no no is target combo (lp>mp)to lp.hozanto. If Gief blocks its a free grab. Not even enough time for me to back dash depending on the spacing. If he keeps tc to lp hozanto(shoulder) grab him he deserves it to learn not to do that. LOL You can even grab him before the hozanto comes out (best way).


#11

you can bait out the run slide and punish with EX GH and SPD on block, or short combo It’s not too difficult especially since his best option for reversal is his tatsu which can also be baited. If the Guy user is dumb enough to do it at point blank Headbutt should snuff it or foward jumping Medium punch on start up


#12

Also you can beat his reversal clean with headbutt


#13

Guy needs no combos… basic ass cr.hk slide from roughly giefs poking/stinkfisting distance is safe on block… and is a KD or possible free combo on hit. you can damn near win the matchup like this… every single one of giefs specials is freely punished by it even from a very safe distance. Gief does have better ground normals… but not away to apply them without a lot of risk. Meanwhile if gief can’t get any pressure going on you… he’ll be forced into your guesses.

Oh want to hear something else fun… neutral jump fp (which combos into the very best of everything guy has with ease… beats lariat clean as fuck when timed right)

He can’t even lariat your neutral.jumps… and even a good gief will lose a round before he figures this out.

He damn sure can’t jump toward you as flip throw becomes freee on his huge sprite. He HAS to get in on you… HAS to do it on the ground… and has literally stinkfist to try with… which is unsafe as hell.

-whole gameplan-
Guy stays at the right distance to beat any ground move on reaction using cr.hk… waits to flip throw a jump or block and punish a stinkfist. if any mistimed cr.hk punish gets blocked… hold up and come down in fp… if gief lariats he’s sunk… if he blocks you get enough hitstun to jump away (or just cancel to flip as you land and flip way past him to the other side of the screen). he’s to slow to follow guys jump distance in anyway. repeat plan…
-end gameplan-

that’s it IMO… obviously a good gief can see that just trying to play tit for tat ain’t gonna work… and will become unpredictable… and start using unsafe shit… start baiting you… ect… and that may or may not get you. with gief’s dmg level he CAN certainly win running on improv like this… but i think at higher lvls guy should have the advantage.


#14

I don’t agree with most of what you just said. If you walk forward with st. mp and he tries to punish with of all things cr. hk you’ll block worst case or you may just take a non-KD hit because it’s not deep enough at which point you can jab hand and almost 100% guaranteed catch a backdash or if they were out of range for the backdash you get an SPD because you’ll have followed their backdash timing perfectly.

Cr. hk is not as godlike for Guy as you’re making it out to be. And you also can’t use bushin flip like a DP and just on reaction use it as an anti air without immaculate reflexes. They have to be throwing it out hoping you jump and taking the chance of having to cancel to the elbow drop which is NOT safe and can be punished by PPP to juggle at worst case and then they’re left with Guy’s completely two dimensional wakeup game which includes EX. Tatsu or EX Bunshin flip. Neither of those are really safe and if he has no meter he’s completely free for anything you want to run.

If he runs at you risk reward is HUGELY in your favor. He gets a knockdown with mk, cool he resets the situation. He gets the overhead with hk, cool some damage and possibly a combo. We block? Free SPD, Ultra, Super, Suplex or whatever Green hand combo you practice to style with. Guy vs Gief is in Gief’s favor all day. Guy can win this but it’s uphill and it requires that he fool you much more often than the other way around.

If you press the match and make him react to you as opposed to the other way around it’s pretty difficult for Guy to get you off. When I lose to Guy, it’s usually because he played extremely well and I played poorly. If they slip at all, they’re screwed, and it’s pretty hard not to screw up or take any chances with a rushdown character as straight forward as Guy.


#15

^Words to live by. Quit being so pessimistic. There’s no reason we can’t win this with little effort.


#16

Now if this was Sagat then yeah I would okay but it’s guy come on if your falling for that stuff then it’s just lack of match up knowledge at that point.


#17

This is an even MU IMO, but make no bones about, Guy has pokes to zone Gief very VERY effectively. The Guy player can choose to play rush or turtle and it will obviously change the match dynamics.

Online you are going to see the rushdown guys trying to put you in block string hell, and play that ambiguous aerial game. Its risky vs Gief but effective in an input lag environment. Offline action I’ve seen between the 2, Guys’s typically go turtle mode

it can get frustrating depending on who you play, but who ever said this is a bad MU for Gief is on crack.


#18

So your walking fwd and whiffing st.mp right in from of him? Hmmm… i don’t think you’ll block a lot of well timed cr.hk’s like that.

How will you jab hand? You just got hit with a non-KD cr.hk and gief is the easiest char in the game to link guys cr.hk to his cr.lp? Your headed for bushin combo buddy… or at least against a good guy you are.(Btw this is a tight link but its a frame easier using cr.lk in AE)

I’m sorry but guy has no reason to backdash vs gief in situation. Guy’s back dash is trash… gief can probably grab him mid animation. Instead he’ll Neutral jump fp to bait the lariat you know you’ll pull out. Pain for you… oh you didn’t lariat but just blocked… well thats enough block stun to either get away (in the air) if you haven’t been 360 mashing…or go for flip throw if you have…

Yes you can… maybe you should play guy… and even a scrub wont need even average relexes to do it with ex flip throw.

A decent guy wont bushin flip elbow drop on gief… its much more lucrative to not hit anything and just fly over his head… land other side… fuck him up for doing lariat. this works better than it ever should…

Actually against gief unless he is going for the lamo KD to repeated xup tick into mashed ass 360 OVER N OVER N OVER… ex tatsu on wake up blah… as it wastes meter and is less safe than lk tatsu (which has total throw immunity). Honestly guys wakeup options are as safe as giefs… or better even in this particular matchup.

You sound like you compare special moves and then take turns option selecting each other… wtf… guy has no reason to even let gief be near him unless the situation favors guy. You can’t just block run pressure there… ever heard of runstop? Probably not given shitty guy players online dunno how to use it. In a lag free environment guy can lock you down until you choose to do something or he says fuck it or flip throws you. Gief can’t just block… you could whip in a move or try to mash a jab… but god knows how that turns out for you.

Gief has no way to safely pressure guy. When you say ‘press’ you sound like you really mean shit out a ex stinkfist and pray you wind up in something to KD where you can just try to vortex. THAT IS SO FAR FROM PLAYING THE MATCH I DUNNO WHAT TO SAY. It’s like saying akuma favors matchup X b/c he has a good vortex. But that doesn’t mean shit about the match-up. Akuma has that vs everyone… it’s not ‘matchup based’

I don’t deny gief is a ‘better’ character overall… I just think at even skill level (highish lvl at least) guy is better in the matchup. The lower skill the players… the more it favors gief obviously b/c he has more health… does lots of dmg… and has great mashable 360 throw… and also gief gets sooooo much out of playing online with even minor lag… in person it’s a very different matchup be w/out lag guy can use full runstop pressure leaving you precious few frames to figure out what to do. Watch kiryu sometime…

You can’t just matchup moves n frames n dmg totals… ur all like LARIAT… and guys like “wow thats just what i want you to do in near every situation.” u don’t know the matchup.


#19

Gief has no way to safely pressure Guy? How about walking forward? And bushin flip is not a DP I’ve played Guy in casuals online and offline and I’m very familiar with the mechanics of his game. I’ll repeat Bushin flip is not a DP sorry.

I’ve played plenty of Guy’s of varying skill levels including K1, iRedman, D’Nyce, Mista Klutch and several other skilled SRK poster and or online warrior Guy’s on many occasions. They’re not Kiryu and Combofiend but they certainly play Guy plenty well enough and from the way you complain about the matchup, you would clearly have no chance against them, so that must count for something. I have won more than I have lost and the matchup is not in Guy’s favor. Nor would any Guy player agree that this matchup is in Guy’s favor. Even at best, but most would agree it’s advantage Gief.

Sorry man, based upon the way you’re lining up the matchup any character beats Gief. If they guess right every time and bait appropriately and predict what you’re going to do any player can beat you with any character. And Guy is free on wakeup. Seriously.


#20

Any character can walk fwd… some faster than gief. I dunno if walking fwd can be counted a better tool vs guy than any other. And it’s the only one to safely move in that he has.

what does gief do to guy on wakeup that someone else can’t do better? neck kick x-ups? eh… mashed throws… ok giefs is he best but it still really dangerous and easy to whiff… so eh… random lariat (no way!)… try for a poke into combo eh… all characters have these options vs a downed guy… many better than gief. Guy could be a lot better on wake up… a hell of a lot better… but I don’t think he’s anymore boned when gief gets a KD than most characters(which is still pretty boned).

bushin flip def isn’t a dp… but to say that you can’t AA using lp bushin grab on reaction reaaally far off. specially against big ass peeps like gief or sagat isn’t true either…

Giefs with lots of success vs guy normally do so by causing havok and trading guesses… b/c if you run through just failing each others guesses… guy dies much faster than gief… like… KD… ok so will he xup or not? will he throw or not? OH a stink fist but is he hitting with it or x-ing up… guy wont know for sure and 2 or 3 of these in a row ends the round for him. Gief has major advantage when playing like that… gief would need to fail twice as many guess to lose.

But i think if its vangief vs combofiend (basically high lvl)… I bet the fiend in a FT10… and IF gief comes out it’s with heavy vortex dependence that just amounts to free guesses that work on almost any character.